Was Obi-Wan Lying to Luke about Anakin/Vader?

[2-1B]

Whoa, lighten-up, fella. I didn't take the Sienfeld reference "seriously".

Sure you did, as evidenced by your very next sentence:

I was simply AMUSED by the fact that you would use one of the most decietful, underhanded, and dishonest characters in all of TV sit-com history to prove your point about Obi-Wan NOT having lied.

"Prove my point" ? ? ? Hardly, that was hardly my intention. It was a ****ing JOKE to introduce my post, so get over it. Need a ladder ?

I'm even sorrier that the LARGER point that I was making about what "constitues" a "lie" seems to have escaped you totally, despite my captialized emphasis.

What good is referencing Obi-Wan's quote from Return of the Jedi in an effort to show me that he is not a liar?

Because he flat out says that what he told Luke was "true." KH had a nice post about that up above.

To me, that quote is coming from a defensive, indignant man / ghost who is being accused of being a liar (just as I would have accused him).

That's funny that you belittled me earlier by saying I missed your point, yet here you don't see Luke's point at all. Ben wasn't accused of being a liar there, nope. Luke was salty that Ben didn't tell him the whole truth but beyond that he wanted clarification of the answer Yoda gave him that Vader was indeed Luke's father. Enter the Spirit of Ben for a little history lesson.

Every liar, if given the chance, will explain how their lie was NOT a lie. I'm not impressed.

I'm not impressed either that you are taking a beloved and kind old man character and indicting him this way, lumping him in with other liars as if he's Bill Clinton or R. Milhouse Nixon.

I fail to see why you are able to identify Leia's intent to mislead Tarkin as a "Lie", and yet cannot do the same regarding Obi-Wan's statement.

According to the way hairs are split around here, Princess Leia's statement was as much "the truth" as Obi-Wan's statement was about Luke's dad. Tarkin's question to Leia was simply 'Where is the Rebel Base?" He wasn't more specific than that. From Leia's "point of view" her response could very well have been considered "the truth". She responded that the Rebels were on Dantooine... and they were... at one time. But not anymore. And sure enough, Imperial scouts ships discovered the remains of a Rebel base on Dantooine. So at the time Tarkin asked his question, there WAS a rebel base on Dantooine... it was just a deserted one.

She said "they're on Dantooine." meaning "they are on Dantooine." Yes, Tarkin asked where is the hidden rebel base and she didn't say they have a base on Dantooine (which could be occupied or deserted) she said that they are on Dantooine. Lie.

Give me a break. As far as I'm concerned, all this hair-splitting is purely and simply a smelly load of crap.

Coming from Brooklyn, that must be a pretty damning statement.

[DARKLORD_67]

Sure you did, as evidenced by your very next sentence:

No, I REALLY didn't. I truly was amused.

"Prove my point" ? ? ? Hardly, that was hardly my intention. It was a ****ing JOKE to introduce my post, so get over it. Need a ladder ?

I'm sorry. You're right. You were not "proving your point" with the Seinfeld reference. You were MAKING your point by using the Sienfeld reference as an example. My bad. That did come out wrong, so my apologies

"Get over it" you say? Geez... I didn't realize that I was "under it". But you're absolutely correct if you imply that I can sometimes take stuff a bit too seriously. It's a character flaw that I'm working on. Apologies again.

As to the "ladder" offer... Actually I DO need one. I've got a LOT of construction work going on around the house and I could really use a good one. I kinda have my eye on the LITTLE GIANT LADDER SYSTEM (as seen on TV). It's just the neatest thing you ever saw:

http://www.as-seen-on-tv-store-1.com...der-system.asp

That's funny that you belittled me earlier by saying I missed your point, yet here you don't see Luke's point at all. Ben wasn't accused of being a liar there, nope. Luke was salty that Ben didn't tell him the whole truth but beyond that he wanted clarification of the answer Yoda gave him that Vader was indeed Luke's father. Enter the Spirit of Ben for a little history lesson.

"Belittled you"? Oh, man. Caesar I'm sincerely sorry if you got the impression that I was doing that. Really. I find you to be a thoughtful, articulate, and insightful debater. I can come off very brash at times in my written word, and I can see how you got that impression. Once again my deepest apologies.

Now whether or not Ben was accused of being a liar by Luke in that scene in Return of the Jedi (like many other things) is probably a matter of perception wouldn't you agree? I mean, the way I saw the scene Luke was VERY accusatory and indignant as he asked, "Why didn't you tell me? You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father."

After Obi-Wan told his tale and explained that he told the truth from a "certain point of view", Luke's "A certain point of view?!" was dripping with RESENTMENT over having been misled (lied to), AND RESENTMENT over Obi-Wan's apparent LACK of remorse over being misleading about such a painful and vital issue. That line spoke VOLUMES to me because it implied that Luke was mostly hurt NOT by the truth that Darth Vader was indeed his father, but by the fact that Obi-Wan misled him about it. Observe Luke's pained anguish aboard the Millennium Falcon at the end of The Empire Stikes Back: "Ben... why didn't you tell me?" Also observe Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghostly SILENCE in that same moment. Now imagine the despair, betrayal, and isolation that Luke Skywalker, battered and defeated, must have felt at that silence.

To ME, the implication of Luke's line is that (HE feels) that "the truth" about someone's state of mortality is NOT a question open to interpretation. One is either "murdered" or "not murdered". And Obi-Wan dismisses Luke's hurt by basically telling him to get over it, and then changing the subject to focus more on details about Anakin Skywalker. He does this KNOWING that Luke's curiosity to learn more about his father will likely dissipate his momentary resentment. And that is precisely what happened. If you read this scene in the Return of the Jedi novelization, I think you can kind of see what I mean. As I recall, there is more dialogue that fleshes out the scene, and Obi-Wan may even have acknowledged that Luke felt lied to.

Now again, this is only MY OWN INTERPRETATION of how that scene played out on screen. Someone else watching that scene obviously may get a different interpretation.

I'm not impressed either that you are taking a beloved and kind old man character and indicting him this way, lumping him in with other liars as if he's Bill Clinton or R. Milhouse Nixon.

Yes I agree with you, Caesar. Ben Obi-Wan Kenobi (in the Original Trilogy) is indeed a beloved and kind old man. But I do not consider it to be a contradiction to say that he also lied about the issue of Luke's father's fate. Both are not mutually exclusive.

You see, I am NOT "indicting" Kenobi as some kind of horrible person. EVERYONE at many points in their life are called upon to lie, bend the truth, mislead, or whatever else you want to call it. That doesn't necessarily make someone a terrible person. Good, decent people lie all the time. Like you, I truly do see Obi-Wan Kenobi as a kind old man. He is also flawed, because he is human. And he is subject to all the imperfections of being human. I find this to be especially true after seeing the Prequel trilogy and learning what kind of a man he was in his youth. He DEFINITELY became a kinder, more compassionate human being as he aged. And his final sacrificial act as a human being was a selfless and compassionate one borne out of wisdom and love.

She said "they're on Dantooine." meaning "they are on Dantooine." Yes, Tarkin asked where is the hidden rebel base and she didn't say they have a base on Dantooine (which could be occupied or deserted) she said that they are on Dantooine. Lie.

Okay. You're right.

Coming from Brooklyn, that must be a pretty damning statement.

Bwaaaahhh, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,
Good one Caesar!! You got me there!!! Touche!!!! But uh, actually, my neighborhood is Brooklyn has actually gotten QUITE nice. Not "smelly" at all. Gentrification and all, y' understand... Heh...






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