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  1. #1

    Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    In the original trilogy, Darth Vader is "the face and voice of the Emperor" and that Darth Vader is believed to be the very last of the Force wielders, per the words of Governor Tarkin in ANH--as the galaxy is unaware of the Emperor's Sith Religion and darkside force powers.

    While privately immersed in his arcane studies and in the Empire's politics, Palpatine has Darth Vader to do his dirty work. This is why we don't see him in the original trilogy using a lightsabre but using the force and force lightning.

    And by the way, in ROTJ, as the Emperor and his dignitaries are walking through the hangar to the Thrownroom with JerJerod, Darth Vader, and other Imperial officers, Palpatine is speaking pretty loudly with Vader about how together they can turn Luke to the Darkside of the Force.

    This makes me think that with the second Death Star, his belief that the Empire will ultimately win against the Rebellion, and Luke going to the Darkside, Palpatine reveals he is a force wielder of the Sith for the Empire and galaxy to know.
    [i]The Dark Side of the Force is the pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural[/i]

  2. #2

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    It's Imperial custom that when the Emperor strolls by, you have to hum loudly and stick your fingers in your ears. Of course, if the Emp was a Sith, then he could simply influence the minds of his troops so they wouldn't remember that part of the conversation, but he'd have to be a Sith to do that. Yeah, I never understood why some folks were positive that despite the Force powers like influence, mind-reading, telekenesis, lightning bolts, and the ability to sense Luke's foray into the Force-pool, that ROTJ Palpatine was either not a Sith, not a true Force-user at all, or not even the same guy as TPM Palpatine.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  3. #3

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks
    It's Imperial custom that when the Emperor strolls by, you have to hum loudly and stick your fingers in your ears. Of course, if the Emp was a Sith, then he could simply influence the minds of his troops so they wouldn't remember that part of the conversation, but he'd have to be a Sith to do that. Yeah, I never understood why some folks were positive that despite the Force powers like influence, mind-reading, telekenesis, lightning bolts, and the ability to sense Luke's foray into the Force-pool, that ROTJ Palpatine was either not a Sith, not a true Force-user at all, or not even the same guy as TPM Palpatine.
    Um, that resembles me.

    I don't think Palpatine really should be a Force user until well into ROTJ for several reasons (which I've stated previously). The first is that there is no need for him to be. As pointed out, Palps has other people doing his dirty work for him constantly. He's the brains, they're the brawn. Period. He doesn't have to so he isn't. An adjunct to this is that it makes for a stronger thematic story to show that political unheaval is possible without magic and sorcery. Palpatine's cunning against an apathetic population is all that is necessary.

    Second is that during the time leading up to TPM and throughout AOTC, had he been using Force powers, he would have inadvertently "disturbed" the energy field surrounding all living things (the Force) and alerted the Jedi to his presence. We KNOW from ANH that a Jedi can send off little ripples just be standing around, so it only sticks to continuity that if Palps was also a Force user, the Jedi would definitely have sensed him numerous times by now.
    This silliness about the Dark Side being able to "mask" his presence is a pretty ridiculous band-aid to cover up a massive problem like this.

    Third, up to now anyway, we haven't seen or heard Palpatine do or say anything that smacks of Force ability until ROTJ. In ESB, he never says that he sensed young Skywalker, only that he knew that Luke was out there. That information easily could have come from spies and such. The very first indication of actual Force usage comes at the very end of ROTJ when Palps removes Luke's handcuffs. The rest is all talk about how he "forsees" the future, all which come off as "boasting" to Vader in order to keep the chain of command clear.

    So, yes, it appears that now with ROTS Lucas is introducing a massive continuity problem which didn't have to exist. Now we HAVE to use that nonsensical bit about the Darkside masking or hiding Palp's presence. And we lose that (timely) political message about simple apathy in the population causing a subversive coup.

    Lucas is an idiot.





    PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.
    Last edited by stillakid; 03-16-2005 at 12:39 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    i don't think that we loose that political message at all: it's all the more dire! the apathetic population can let the most evil man in the galaxy become emperor. otherwise, he's just another lousy politician.

    and if no one survives to tell anyone that he IS a force user, then no one knows!
    Nachos are the right of all sentient beings.

    The guns... They've stopped!
    - Dan Akroyd, Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope

  5. #5

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.
    Whatever way you look at it, he was wrong. Obviously there are still a few Jedi left, and Vader was a Sith anyway (though Motti likely meant force-users in general). Tarkin was trying to convince Vader (or himself) that Obi-Wan was gone and their "fire has gone out of the universe." It's possible that Tarkin was just saying that Vader was one of the last force-users, not necessarily the last one. Or really, maybe he forgot for a minute.

    In ESB, Palpatine says (in both old and new versions): "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." Obviously from those statements you can tell that Palpatine can tap into the Force. It's really that simple.

  6. #6

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Stillakid, in ESB while Darth Vader is speaking with the Emperor via hologram,
    the Emperor does let on that he is a Force-wielder by stating that there is a great disturbance in the force--that the son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi because he could destroy Vader and the Emperor. Only a Force wielder would know that the force is strong with someone. "The force is strong with him."

    Vader says that if Luke could be turned (to the darkside), he would become a powerful ally and he Emperor replies yes, he would be a great asset and asks Vader if it could be done. Vader says he (Luke) will either join us or die.
    Last edited by Von-El; 03-16-2005 at 07:51 PM.
    [i]The Dark Side of the Force is the pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural[/i]

  7. #7

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    Um, that resembles me.

    I don't think Palpatine really should be a Force user until well into ROTJ for several reasons (which I've stated previously). The first is that there is no need for him to be. As pointed out, Palps has other people doing his dirty work for him constantly. He's the brains, they're the brawn. Period. He doesn't have to so he isn't. An adjunct to this is that it makes for a stronger thematic story to show that political unheaval is possible without magic and sorcery. Palpatine's cunning against an apathetic population is all that is necessary.
    I agree and disagree with you on that statement. True, throughout the entire story, he does have other people doing his dirty work. However, as with anything in nature no matter how covert they wish to be, once your cornered, you react. We'll all find out in ROTS how exactly this comes to past, but I believe Palps had no intention of the Jedi ever knowing his true identity. But, then they come to arrest him however the events play out. So, now he's caught and cornered so the only reaction is to attack them and in doing so he must use the Force. No matter how "brainy" he is, he will still overlook or underestimate a situation, like he did with Luke. So, he must call on his powers as a reaction.

    Now, I agree with you that these scenes should not take place in ROTS and are better suited for ROTJ, but not for the same reasons as you listed. Techcnically, this is the middle chapter of a six part saga, so why pull out all the stops in the middle? I understand that this is the last SW movie and Lucas really, so badly it's been itchin' him in places not appropriate to talk about, wants to show the powers of the Dark Side from the master himself, but that needed to be done in ROTJ if we are expected to watch in chronological order. That is really the only complaint I have, even though I'm really going to like watching those scenes just for visual sake. I don't quite see how Palps using the Force in ROTS takes away from his cunning political savvy. Up to ROTS, Palps hasn't used the Force and manipulated his way to the top, going from Senator to Supreme Chancellor and the finally Emperor, by playing on the emotions of his fellow senators.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    Second is that during the time leading up to TPM and throughout AOTC, had he been using Force powers, he would have inadvertently "disturbed" the energy field surrounding all living things (the Force) and alerted the Jedi to his presence. We KNOW from ANH that a Jedi can send off little ripples just be standing around, so it only sticks to continuity that if Palps was also a Force user, the Jedi would definitely have sensed him numerous times by now.
    This silliness about the Dark Side being able to "mask" his presence is a pretty ridiculous band-aid to cover up a massive problem like this.
    Who said he had been using the Force all the way up until then, though. Since we don't know that information for sure, it's pretty much a moot point. Now, calling the ability to mask his existance "silliness" is just ridiculous. Obi-Wan uses the Force on stormtroopers in ANH to cloud their mind to think of something else because they are of the weaker minded. It's been stated a few times that the Dark Side is more powerful, so compared to the Sith, a Jedi is of somewhat a weaker mind IMO, so it would be possible for a Sith the cloak his existance, and with Palps being a very powerful Sith, he is able to stay hidden right under their noses.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    Third, up to now anyway, we haven't seen or heard Palpatine do or say anything that smacks of Force ability until ROTJ. In ESB, he never says that he sensed young Skywalker, only that he knew that Luke was out there. That information easily could have come from spies and such. The very first indication of actual Force usage comes at the very end of ROTJ when Palps removes Luke's handcuffs. The rest is all talk about how he "forsees" the future, all which come off as "boasting" to Vader in order to keep the chain of command clear.
    I actually agree with you on this, which goes back to what I was saying about how I wish Lucas had saved the power of Palpatine until ROTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    PS. Oh, I forgot one other thing. In ANH, Tarkin tells Vader that "you my friend are the last of their religion." Amongst other problems with that statement caused by sloppiness in the Prequels, one would think that Tarkin, being the head guy in charge of the Universe's biggest tank, would be quite aware that Palpatine was also a "Jedi" or whatever he saw Vader as. So for him to proclaim that Vader is the last of them tells us quite clearly that either he doesn't know that Palps is a Force-user or that Palpatine isn't a Force user yet. It's really that simple.
    Who said anyone, but Vader, in the Empire knows that Palps is a Sith? Maybe, when he proclaims himself Emperor, probably because he tells the Senate that democracy has failed because it has allowed the Jedi to manipulate the Republic to wage a war with Dooku, he never lets on that he is a Sith and since he got them as far as he had, that they should trust him to make all the decisions and the dummy senators agree with him.
    Ah, good...here comes the Air Force with those new round planes.

  8. #8

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Cool! I stirred up the beehive.

    Uh, where to start. How 'bout with my assertion that taking over a government sans magical powers has more dramatic flavor than the alternative. It still holds in my opinion. Any genie, God, or otherwise supernatural being could take over the universe if he wanted and the populace couldn't be blamed for it. Afterall, mere mortals have no power to stop the sorcerer. The rules change and everybody is f'd. However, if the oppressor is just "one of us," a mere mortal with nothing but evil intentions and the perserverence to go with it, the (inevitable) coup is suddenly all the more horrible as it only occurs because the populace allows it to happen. With a magician at the helm, they have no choice but to submit to his power. This is one reason why the wiser portions of humanity push to study a guy like Hitler in humanistic terms. To just consider him an "animal" or otherwise "unhuman" diminishes the responsibility of those who followed him and his wishes. He WAS human therefore the situation is even more tragic. This is why leaving Palpatine as a non-Force user is a far stronger way to go.


    What's next? Hmm, let's see...

    Oh yeah, Mr. Jabba John brings up a good point. Palpatine says something to the effect of: "There is a great disturbance in the Force," and later, "The Force is strong with him." John thinks that we need to take this statement of Palps at his word. I choose not to however. Why? Because it makes more sense. Palps is a liar plain and simple. Listen to just about every exchange he has with Vader in ROTJ. Everytime Vader illustrates his own power or connection with Luke, Palps jumps in with some bullsh** about how he could "foresee" this or "foresee" that. His delivery and intent is obvious. He KNOWS that Vader could kick his arse but he needs to maintain control over his minion. By dropping a few "I have foreseen it"s into the conversation, he keeps Vader at bay by making that dumb bipolar sh** think that Palps has a better grasp over the Force. So back to the ESB conversation. Palps claims that he felt a disturbance in the Force, but in reality, I think that what should be happening is that Palps finds out that the son of Skywalker is the putz that blew up his ball o' fun. Lots o' Midichlorians equals lots o' Midichlorians. In other words, Vader was strong with the Force therefore Luke must be too. Big surprise. It didn't take a Force user to figure this out, just a few spies and a politician trying to maintain control over his main muscle.

    I can hear it now, stillakid is pulling crap out of thin air that isn't really there. Maybe, but the pieces fit far better thematically and in terms of overall continuity than if Palps IS a Force user throughout.


    And as to this business about the Darkside masking technique being silly. Yeah it is. And it is apples and oranges compared to Ben using the Force against the "weak minded." In that instance, Ben is firing energy bolts at one guy 4 feet away. What this Darkside nonsense is suggesting is that somehow Palpatine is constantly and without interruption, manipulating the energy field (the Force) in such a way that none of the 5000+ Jedi out there can possibly sense him doing his evil work. C'mon. What a crock o' ****. This is one reason I don't get too much into fantasty crap like Lord of the Rings and the like. There are limits to what sorcery can do. Star Wars set up a lot of cool powers, true, but it also has limitations and for us to suddenly accept that the Sith someone can manipulate the minds of over 5000 Jedi for an indefinite period of time stretches the limits of my suspension of disbelief.


    Tarkin. He had to have known about Palpatine, plain and simple. It is illogical to think that he would have no idea that Palpatine was an evil Sith. And the statement from him was indeed that he believed Vader was the last of that ancient religion.


    But ROTS will blow this whole idea out of the water when we see Palps throw down with Mace and his band o' merry men. Just one more nick in the armor that was Star Wars.

  9. #9

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    Why did Tarkin have to know about the Emperor ? I don't see how it's plain and simple.

    *********Episode 3 Spoilers*************
    I just double checked and we're in the OT section here.

    Palpatine is a politician to most of the people in the galaxy and if he reveals his Sith-self to a few Jedi, well what does that matter since anybody who sees him for his true self is likely going to be silenced by death in the first place ?

    So Palpatine might use some Dark Side stuff in the final prequel but as he puts on an outward showcase of Palpatine the Politician, there's no reason to say with certainty that Tarkin has to know about it.

    If anything, the statement he made about Vader being the last is proof the other way that he will not be witness to any of Palpatine's magical workings in the prequels.


  10. #10

    Re: Palpatine Reveals He's A Sith in ROTJ

    I disagree that we should have to wait until ROTJ to learn that Palpatine is a Sith Lord in all his darkside glory as a force-wielder.

    The prequel trilogies are about the Jedi, Old Republic, Padme, Anakin's joing the Jedi Order to becoming a Sith Lord, Obi-Wan's younger years, and Palpatine's rise to political power.

    In TPM and AOTC, Palpatine was in the role of a politician. Senator and Supreme Chancellor, not revealed as Darth Sidious.

    Let's keep in mind that the prequel trilogies were made nearly 20 years after the original so we know who is who and what may happen.

    It isn't until ROTS that the Jedi learn that Palpatine is the elusive Sith Lord Darth Sidious they have been after.

    The Jedi foolishly believed the Sith were extinct for over a millenium and Yoda knew the rule of two since he's been around for almost that amount of time.

    ROTS will parallel ROTJ in that we see Palpatine showing his darkside powers. In TPM and AOTC, he's a politician. In ROTS he's a politician and Sith Lord. He has his minions doing his dirty work in the first two prequels and even in the ROTS. During the OT, the Emperor is behind the scenes, has Darth Vader, the Imperial Dignitaries, and Governors doing his dirty work, and doesn't make his official appearance until ROTJ in which he says loudly on board the Death Star that he and Darth Vader, together, can turn Luke to the Darkside--thus revealing he too is a Sith for others to hear. Other parallels is how Palpatine will reveal how he manipulated events to his liking in ROTS as he did in ROTJ. Anakin was not strong enough to fight off the seduction of the darkside as Luke was, because Luke had Yoda and Obi-Wan to train him in the ways of the Jedi and tell him of what happened to his father Anakin.

    When confronted, after being exposed, he has to cover his @$$ and fight back because he knows that he stands to lose everything. When fighting back he covers himself by villifying the Jedi as enemies of the Republic.

    Some of the politicians in the Republic have grown to distrust and dislike Palpatine because he has grown very powerful, politically. The Jedi are the only ones to learn he is a Sith Lord.

    For Palpatine to reveal that he is a trained force-wielder, he would be setting himself up for a fall, because it may be assumed he is an evil Jedi himself. He does have people in the Empire who dislike him and find the Empire to be tyrannical. There are spies there, but what can they do if they don't have the force on their side because they are not force wielders?

    If the Sith are believed to have been extinct for over a millenium, do those denizens of the galaxy during the Old Republic and Empire days during both trilogies even know what a Sith Lord is?

    The Jedi have been the role models for good.

    Palpatine has the appearance of a feeble old man but he certainly isn't so.

    Darth Vader is his most loyal and trusting servant, serving as the hand, voice, and face of the Emperor. He will kill anyone for going after his master. Vader is said to be the last of the force-wielders, but unlike Palpatine, he generates fear with his tall imposing appearance, wearing the black armor, black mask, unusual breathing, and strong yet stern voice. It is known that Vader has been made the exception of force-wielders and shown to be the Emperor's most trusted in the Empire.

    Yoda knew in ROTJ that the Emperor was powerful as he warned Luke not to underestimate him. Therefore, Yoda had to have confronted the man to know this as well as having been around to see it.
    [i]The Dark Side of the Force is the pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural[/i]

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