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  1. #1

    Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    Before Lucas was able to put the "Episode IV - A New Hope" title onto the first Star Wars movie, the very first thing that the movie showed us, after the main title and the "a long time ago..." part, was this line from the crawl:

    It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base,
    have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

    So the first thing this story tells us is that we're in a period of civil war, and it involves the Rebellion and the Galactic Empire. By its very mention of it being "a period of civil war", the movie is telling us that this is unusual in that universe's recent history, yet Episodes II and III both deal chiefly with a civil war, where the Galactic Republic (who becomes the Empire in III) is going through a civil war with the Confederacy of Independent Systems, knownalso as the Separatists. This prequel civil war lasts about 2 years in the saga timeline and embroils nearly the entire galaxy in some way, it's a pretty major event which takes place only about 20 years prior to Episode IV, and in fact seems to be a bigger civil war than the one which Ep 4 speaks of in its crawl. That doesn't make much sense though, the galaxy was largely suffering a civil yet this much more minor insurrection by the Rebel Alliance is called "a period of civil war" where that is only referred to as "the clone wars"? Thoughsome I'm sure will claim I'm just quibbling over semantics, I would reply that this is part of the core of the original Star Wars story andI don't think the prequels make sense this way, I just don't think it fits.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  2. #2

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    The Empire crawl says:

    It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth. The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space...

    It says that Luke led a group of freedom fights to establish the base on Hoth. Do you think this implies that Luke is the leader of the Rebels on Hoth, which is not true, since General Riekeen outranks him. Or do you think it implies he led the first group that went to Hoth? Maybe he led the mission to discover whether or not Hoth was suitable for a base.

    The Return of the Jedi crawl says:

    Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy...

    The crawl says that WHEN the Death Star is completed it WILL spell certain doom. Not much wiggle room there. First, it says that it WILL be completed and that it WILL spell certain doom. Second, the Death Star II WAS fully armed and operation, yet it did not spell certain doom.

    I think you're digging a tad too deep, JediTricks, and this is coming from a deep digger. It is a period of civil war, just not THE period of civil war. Also, perhaps since it is a short period of Galactic History that we see in Episodes II-IV, maybe in some people's minds the civil wars have just never stopped, first the Clone Wars and then snap, before you know it, the Rebellion. A period of never ending civil war, just as Palpatine warned Anakin would happen if they failed to wipe out the Jedi, which they did.

    Not that I am a prequel apologist ... I'll leave that to Tycho. If you've read his interviews postings you know he's more clever than me. And you have to be clever to contstantly defend everthing done in the prequels.
    Last edited by Droid; 06-06-2005 at 09:30 PM.

  3. #3

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    I'll agree with you, JT. The impression we get from the ANH crawl is that Episode IV will be showing us a large conflict. "Civil War" implies that there is a huge division among the participants who are "members" of the organization in question.

    But that crawl would be far more applicable to the conflict we see in the Prequels as the Separatists want to exit the Republic and the Republic fights back. That is a civil war.

    The conflict we see in the OT is more like an insurgency as we see in Iraq today. Hardly a civil war in the most accepted terms.

    Heck, even the ESB crawl indicates that the Rebellion is a very very small group as it is chased from Yavin to Hoth. Then we are meant to assume that the Rebellion gains membership by ROTJ as we see a far larger group.

    Naturally, I recall a lot of people casually wondering in the 1980s just what the term "clone wars" was going to mean. Was it two simultaneous wars or was it to be a war involving genetic clones? Those were the ideas bandied about. But either way, the concept of a true "civil war" wouldn't be expected to arrive until after Episode III and prior to Episode IV. Everything during and before III would encompass an all out "war" of some kind, most likely against an enemy that was independent of the original Republic.

    This idea would have worked far better than having to have Palpatine engineer some kind of false conflict just to gain power. With this alien attack, he would have had more than enough justification to build an army and take executive power without question or nonsensical machinations. Then, just as in ROTS, once the Republic had wrapped up these "clone wars" with this alien invader, Palps would have held onto his power thus instigating the Jedi (the guardians of peace and justice) into action against him.

    Damn...this entire Prequel mess needs rewritten in a big way. And it will be so easy. How could George F up his own story so badly when the obvious better story was sitting there in front of him all along?

  4. #4

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    JT - whatever "alternative" storylines you come up with, a lot of what you're talking about goes back to the timeline issues that I keep harping on. There is just no way that the universe we see in the OT is the place portrayed in the PT, only 20 or so years later. The feel is completely off, no matter how many stupid cameos (by both characters and hardware) GL threw into ROTS in a desperate attempt to tie things together.

    The universe of the OT is not a place where vast droid armies had fought a Civil War against the valiant Clone armies of the Rebublic only 20 years earlier - there's just nothing about the OT that suggests that such a thing ever happened. No Separatists are ever mentioned anywhere, no Clans/Federations, nothing. Also, as I've asked before, why would the events portrayed in AOTC and ROTS be referred to as the Clone Wars at all? Wouldn't they be more accurately, more plausibly, called the Separatist Wars, or the Civil War?

    You might be able to get from the events of the PT to the OT with a longer stretch of time between - I would argue that 30-35 years feels about right, but the story still doesn't make sense.

    If I was to write an outline for my own PT, I would have started in the middle of the Clone Wars, perhaps (as stillakid) suggests, with the clones as an outside threat that the Jedi are fighting against. The war(s) has been going on for some time, the central character in EP1 is Obi-wan, and he meets the teen-aged Anakin Skywalker at the end of the first chapter. EP2 continues the Clone Wars, shows Anakin's apprenticeship and development (and no hint of him being the freakin' Messiah), with his relationship with Obi-wan more like that between Obi-wan and Qui-Gon in TPM (this would show us the "reckless" younger Obi-wan that Yoda mentions in ESB, and a warmer relationship between Master and apprentice).

    At the height of the Clone Wars, Palpatine declares himself Emperor, and the end of the Clone Wars marks the end of Ep2. Ep3 would show the growth of the Imperial bureaucracy and military - with the end of the "hot" Clone Wars, the organs of the Empire turn to the search for internal enemies to justify Palpatine's continued "special powers". With the Jedi acting as the military force of the Senate, they move to the top of the Enemies List as the Senate agitates for a cessation of the Special Powers. Anakin, now a mature and full Jedi and very respected in the Order, is part of a delegation sent to negotiate with Palpatine, but he falls in thrall of the Sith Lord, who slowly corrupts his mind, etc.

    The above isn't perfect, but it's by far the most detailed outline I've ever written for my own "alternative" PT, and it would clearly need some work. At its heart, though, I think it could at least make more sense than what we got. Given my druthers, of course, I'd abandon the "only 2 Dark Lords at a time" nonsense, and get back to the multiple Dark Lords of the "Star Wars" novelization, but that's a whole 'nother topic.

    Rick

  5. #5

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    Man, I could not agree with you more. And the outline you made is great. Don't get me wrong I liked the PT for the most part, but it will never live up to the OT for the simple fact that we already know the plot. There is no big cliffhanger type revelation as seen in ESB. Unless you count the Death Star in AOTC, which took me by surprise.

    Its like I've told friends, the PT is like watching Titanic - don't get excited when the boat starts to sink. The real movie was the action around the plot we already know. O.K. turn to the PT, don't get excited when the Jedi start dying; and when Anakin & Obi-Wan start to duel, we already know the outcome. The real story is the action around the plot: the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire, the extermination of the Jedi, the fall of Anakin, and the rise of Lord Vader: these are all the plot; so where the PT has fallen short is the story/action around this plot(s).

    Now, having already made the middle and end of the Saga; you would think that GL would have a "fact checker" type person to scan back over the OT to make sure that the PT doesn't contradict the OT in anyway and has a natural flow into it.

    Another major contradiction (I think possibly THE major contradiction); and I know it has already been discussed but I do not agree with peoples comments; is the whole ROTJ scene of Leia "remembering her mother". Really all the other types of contradictions between the OT and the PT, I can either live with or sorta make a rational conclusion, except for the whole Leia "remembering her mother from the womb" stuff. Hey, if Leia (who has NOT been trained in the ways of the Force) can remember her mother from the womb, then why not Luke (who HAS been trained in the ways of the Force).

    But anyway, back to what you said. What kinda sucks about the PT is that GL put the whole Anakin as a kid story in to attract a younger audience (same with Jar Jar). And I think this may be were the PT starts to fall short. I loved the whole Senator Palpatine orchestrates (sp?) the blockade to get elected, so on and so forth; but the way it was described throughout the PT just doesn't quite flow smoothly into the OT. Anyway, I think you made some good points.

  6. #6

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by Droid
    The Empire crawl says:

    It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy. Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth. The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space...

    It says that Luke led a group of freedom fights to establish the base on Hoth. Do you think this implies that Luke is the leader of the Rebels on Hoth, which is not true, since General Riekeen outranks him. Or do you think it implies he led the first group that went to Hoth? Maybe he led the mission to discover whether or not Hoth was suitable for a base.
    For all we know, Luke "leads" the small group of Freedom Fighters by his deeds even though he's not the highest ranking commander. Or perhaps because he's a commander in the field, he leads troops into battle and it's taken that way. We never actually see Luke taking orders from anybody else that I can remember. We don't have to know the exact military layout to get the jist of the comment, just as we don't have to know exactly which groups of people are rebelling against the Empire to create a civil war.

    The Return of the Jedi crawl says:

    Luke Skywalker has returned to his home planet of Tatooine in an attempt to rescue his friend Han Solo from the clutches of the vile gangster Jabba the Hutt. Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE has begun construction on a new armored space station even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star. When completed, this ultimate weapon will spell certain doom for the small band of rebels struggling to restore freedom to the galaxy...

    The crawl says that WHEN the Death Star is completed it WILL spell certain doom. Not much wiggle room there. First, it says that it WILL be completed and that it WILL spell certain doom. Second, the Death Star II WAS fully armed and operation, yet it did not spell certain doom.
    The crawl speaks of the possibility of it going online and spelling doom, which it absolutely DOES for our heroes, it's just that our heroes overcome this in the end. And the beginning of the film shows quite clearly that the Death Star II is not "fully armed and operational" because when Vader arrives, he lights a fire under Jerjerrod to get that task completed by the time the Emperor arrives.

    I think you're digging a tad too deep, JediTricks, and this is coming from a deep digger. It is a period of civil war, just not THE period of civil war. Also, perhaps since it is a short period of Galactic History that we see in Episodes II-IV, maybe in some people's minds the civil wars have just never stopped, first the Clone Wars and then snap, before you know it, the Rebellion. A period of never ending civil war, just as Palpatine warned Anakin would happen if they failed to wipe out the Jedi, which they did.
    If I'm digging too deep, you could simply ignore my comments instead of lending credence to them by bringing attention to them with your arguments. If the period of civil war never ended, why mention that the period is between the empire and the rebellion when it wasn't previously? If it's taken as "another civil war" why not say that? It's been well over 100 years yet I bet if there was another US civil war people wouldn't simply refer to it as "the civil war".

    Not that I am a prequel apologist ... I'll leave that to Tycho. If you've read his interviews postings you know he's more clever than me. And you have to be clever to contstantly defend everthing done in the prequels.
    I know Tycho, he's not more clever, just more disturbed.


    Quote Originally Posted by stilla
    The conflict we see in the OT is more like an insurgency as we see in Iraq today. Hardly a civil war in the most accepted terms.
    Well, to some Iraqis it is a civil war, and I don't mean just from the POV of the insurgents. However, in Star Wars, we're shown that Leia is part of the rebel ALLIANCE which suggests that there are other freedom fighter cells that have broken off from the Empire and are actively fighting it. You could also argue that since the movie is told with the focus being that the the rebels are the good guys, they see it as a civil war, but none the less they'd still have a sense of galactic history which now means there was another, larger civil war 20 years prior but originally seems to suggest that there was a different kind of war surrounding 'clones'.
    Heck, even the ESB crawl indicates that the Rebellion is a very very small group as it is chased from Yavin to Hoth. Then we are meant to assume that the Rebellion gains membership by ROTJ as we see a far larger group.
    You are making an assumption without taking the "alliance" issue into account.

    Naturally, I recall a lot of people casually wondering in the 1980s just what the term "clone wars" was going to mean. Was it two simultaneous wars
    I remember that too, but I have never heard the idea that it was 2 concurrent wars before, though that'd make some sense (so would a war that is fought for the exact same reason and having the same main activities and outcomes as another fought at a different time, but calling that the 'clone wars' might seem too glib for the context of discussing war). Interesting take, I'll have to digest it some more.

    Everything during and before III would encompass an all out "war" of some kind, most likely against an enemy that was independent of the original Republic.
    Not that I'm arguing with the general idea you're getting at, I agree with what you're saying. However, it didn't have to be DURING ep 3, Lucas had no real intention of making a 'III' when he wrote the line, so we would never have known if it was during III or entirely before it, I'll submit that because of the short time frames Lucas was writing the true story - what we know as eps 4 through 6 now - from, that Ep III actually suggests that it happened years closer to ANH than the ROTS movie does. But yeah, your point seems valid, that the previous tales to Ep IV did not include a civil war, rather a different kind of war. Of course, if Lucas actually did mean to tell the story of the OT in 1 film, perhaps Ep 3 came WAAAAY before Ep 4 (and Eps 2 and 1 were just as distantly spread apart) which could fit your claim. I'm just saying we don't know if it must have been during Ep 3.

    This idea would have worked far better than having to have Palpatine engineer some kind of false conflict just to gain power.
    What's funny is Lucas says the prequels we now know were always there, but what he says on the ANH commentary track is that there were rough outlines, such as "Palpatine did *something* to come to power" but never really put down that much. It's like the show "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda", the show claims to be created by Gene Roddenberry but it really spawned from a very short idea of his that said something like "a ship and its captain get stuck in time for 300 years until he comes out and finds everything he knew destroyed" which covers barely a fraction of even the first episode, much less the 5 years that followed.


    Damn...this entire Prequel mess needs rewritten in a big way. And it will be so easy. How could George F up his own story so badly when the obvious better story was sitting there in front of him all along?
    As I said above, the prequels were never REALLY a story to F-up in the first place, Lucas said himself that Star Wars was never supposed to have any Eps 1 through 3 and that was part of the point. I am going to expand upon this later, dunno if tonight or not because I've blown too much of my day on the forums, but in the meantime, listen to the ANH commentary and you'll hear what I'm talking about, the reason why it's ok to be a SW fan and not like the prequels - the prequels never were supposed to exist as real stories, that was part of the gag and part of what made Star Wars so much of what it was.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick B
    JT - whatever "alternative" storylines you come up with, a lot of what you're talking about goes back to the timeline issues that I keep harping on. There is just no way that the universe we see in the OT is the place portrayed in the PT, only 20 or so years later. The feel is completely off, no matter how many stupid cameos (by both characters and hardware) GL threw into ROTS in a desperate attempt to tie things together.

    The universe of the OT is not a place where vast droid armies had fought a Civil War against the valiant Clone armies of the Rebublic only 20 years earlier - there's just nothing about the OT that suggests that such a thing ever happened....
    I wholeheartedly agree, that's really my point here, it doesn't fit no matter how much shoehorning Lucas has done.


    Also, as I've asked before, why would the events portrayed in AOTC and ROTS be referred to as the Clone Wars at all? Wouldn't they be more accurately, more plausibly, called the Separatist Wars, or the Civil War?
    I've thought that too, it'd be a little like the British calling the American Revolution "the Hessian Wars" because the Brits used Hessian mercenaries in several battles. Nobody in the US ever calls the Korean War "the Chinese Wars" even though the Chinese were a major force fighting alongside the North Koreans and had hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers sent to their deaths during that conflict.


    Quote Originally Posted by jlw
    What kinda sucks about the PT is that GL put the whole Anakin as a kid story in to attract a younger audience (same with Jar Jar). And I think this may be were the PT starts to fall short.
    This is one area where I really don't understand Lucas's logic, the original Star Wars was a MASSIVE hit with children yet had no incredibly goofy characters that added nothing to the plot (until ROTJ which sucked due to this inclusion) and no kiddie characters at all (again, until ROTJ which was hampered due to this). What made Star Wars work so well for kids was not just the whiz-bang of it, or the sense of incredible adventure and action, though they all played a big part for sure, but also that when Lucas took all that time researching how myths work and what makes them resonate with people, he tapped into something very deep in us all, those core tales which help drive humanity forward, he was able to boil down to simple yet strong points all which made these stories grand which made them accessable to children. The prequels, in contrast, while initially pandering to kiddies, didn't put in any of that mythos work and ended up with these convoluted tales that were also somewhat devoid of meaning (if you catch my drift - I'm not saying they're meaningless, just that the cosmic idea of the mythos isn't really showing up on the set most of the time).
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  7. #7

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    I have to disagree on this point.

    the movie is telling us that this is unusual in that universe's recent history
    I didn't get that at all from the crawl. What's more:

    Leia: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father during the Clone Wars."

    Luke: "My father didn't fight in the Clone Wars."

    Both of these lines tell me that there was some big battle(s) that took place about 30 years ago, give or take.

    All I got from the part JT posted was that these Rebels were just getting started or finally building some momentum, afterall, this is their "first victory against the evil Galactic Empire." Which tells me that this isn't some huge division within the Empire, more like a few East Coast States deciding to break off and start a rebellion in the US. The beginings of a Civil War. Had this been some massive Civil War, I would think that there would have already been victories and losses on both sides.

    You can argue, "Why didn't they call the Clone Wars a Civil War" or "Why did they decide to call this a Civil War", but I really don't read much in to why Wars are named the way they are, that seems irrelavent to me. Would you have felt better with, it is a period of Civil Discontent or it is a period of Civil Disobedience

    There is just no way that the universe we see in the OT is the place portrayed in the PT, only 20 or so years later. The feel is completely off, no matter how many stupid cameos (by both characters and hardware) GL threw into ROTS in a desperate attempt to tie things together.
    I feel the discontinuity as well. But I think it has more to do with CGI. The OT seemed more real, it had a real world "lived in" quality that the PT is sorely lacking! It seems that it is very difficult to make computer generated images appear to have a "lived in" quality to them. Everything feels too clean.
    May the force be with you.

  8. #8

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    My assessment of the prequels and a proposed outline of the prequels that I posted in another thread:

    The more I think about this the more I think having Luke and Leia's mother be such an important character was a big mistake. I really think the prequels should have been about Anakin's relationship with Obi-wan Kenobi, Owen, and the Emperor.

    In Episode I he had no contact with Owen and a few brief scenes at best with Obi-wan and the Emperor. During the gap in between Episode I and II we are led to believe that Obi-wan and the Emperor had all kinds of contact with Anakin, by we don't get to see it onscreen.

    By the time Episode II kicks in, we have one or two scenes (and about five minutes of Anakin's life) with Owen.

    Obi-wan and Anakin are far from the friends we were led to believe they were by the original trilogy and are at each other's throats. But we really don't get too much of Anakin and Obi-wan's relationship in Episode II because Anakin spends the whole time with Padme and Obi-wan spends the whole time off on Kamino, neither of which had to be done to support we heard about in the original trilogy. We heard in the original trilogy how Obi-wan and Anakin were good friends, we heard nothing about how much Anakin loved Luke and Leia's mother and we heard nothing about Obi-wan's quest to find out who was trying to kill Luke and Leia's mother.

    We have one scene in Episode II that shows how the Emperor and Anakin are close, but we are not led on screen to know why Anakin is close to the Emperor. And for those of you who have listened to the audio commentary and tracked the original scripts of both Episode I and II, Lucas never wrote a scene with Palpatine and Anakin in either film and added them as after thoughts. "Oh ya, I have to have a reason these two team up."

    In Episdoe III, Obi-wan and Anakin are now supposedly good friends, but the transition from the bickering in Episode II until the "friendship" in Episode III happens, once again, offscreen. And then they are apart for most of the movie because Obi-wan goes off to fight Grievous. In one scene they are expressing their absolute admiration for one another. Then Anakin tells Palpatine he understands the Jedi all have to die and that Obi-wan is an enemy. Then he is ready to kill Obi-wan. It makes little sense. Anakin may resent the Jedi, but he tells Obi-wan how much he admires him, and I think we are supposed to believe he is sincere. Then Padme shows up, tells Anakin things Anakin KNOWS to be true (you've turned to the dark side and killed younglings) and now he is ready to kill Obi-wan? Why? I don't really know. To save Padme? That doesn’t really make sense.

    There is quite a bit of Palpatine and Anakin in Episode III. And there is nothing with Anakin and Owen in Episode III.

    I think the problem with Padme reallly is that Lucas tried to write "the greatest love story of all time", with every hint of Romeo and Juliet he could throw in. It would have been better to just offer to the audience that they loved each other, have them already be together or just have Anakin met a girl and they clicked, rather than spending all of Episode II trying to convince us that we were watching something truly special.

    Anakin should have turned to the Dark Side because of a quest for power, not this “I might be able to save Padme from dying business”. If his love for Padme was the reason he was going to turn evil it might have played better if Lucas had the Jedi discover his secret relationship with Padme, expel him, and have him turn on them rather than this “I must save her” business. Or if he blamed them for not letting him go save his mother, he sensed Padme was in trouble, they wouldn’t let him help her, she died, and he turned evil.

    I think the story might have worked better if:

    Anakin Skywalker and Owen SKYWALKER were brothers, with their wives, are farming on Tattooine (at a different farm for Pete's sake so the hiding place is better). Anakin is tired of the family life and the farm. He has wonderlust. Young Jedi Obi-wan Kenobi comes to Tatooine recruiting for people to fight in the Clone Wars, which are tearing the galaxy apart, because the Republic, which doesn't use Clones, is overwhelmed by the forces of the Mandalorians, who do. Anakin agrees to go because the Republic has more cash than soldiers and he wants the money, but also thinks the galaxy is worth fighting for. He leaves with Obi-wan. Owen is very bitter that Anakin is leaving and tells him not to go. The wife and Owen are pretty much out of the picture.

    Obi-wan and Anakin became close fighting in the Clone Wars under Bail Organa, who owns R2-D2 and C-3P0, who would have virtually no contact with Obi-wan, Anakin, or any other character from the original trilogy. Anakin also works alongside, and perhaps under, a non-Jedi general named Tarkin.

    Obi-wan and Anakin make a good team. They have Butch Cassidy and Sundance type adventures and they are both kind of like Han. Obi-wan is known as a bit of a rogue, impatient, reckless, sometimes angry. He and Anakin are a great fit. Obi-wan is promoted to Genearl and people start to know the team as talented. Obi-wan senses how strong the force is in Anakin. He wants to train him, but isn't allowed to because Anakin is too old to be trained in the traditional sense, and he has a wife. So, Obi-wan trains him in secret, convinced he can do a good job.

    But Anakin is greedier than Obi-wan. Obi-wan sees him use the Dark Side where necessary and is alarmed. Anakin goes for money and power. Obi-wan goes to his master, Yoda, and confesses what he has done. However, he is impudent with Yoda, showing his own flashes of anger. Yoda agrees that Anakin needs to be kept an eye so is made a Jedi Knight, so he can be watched.

    Anakin is interested in status and in gaining more and more power. Though happy to be a Jedi, he rebukes the control the Jedi try to place on him. A politician named Palpatine, who was elected promising to end the Clone Wars, takes an interest in Anakin and offers him the universe.

    At some point, Anakin goes home on leave and impregnates his wife.

    Of course, you need lightsaber duels, so you would have some Sith Lords, who are working with the Mandalorians to take control of the galaxy. You could have had a bunch of Jedi fight Sith Lords, as there was no reason to limit them to two.

    The Jedi work hard to destroy the cloning centers, the true reason the Mandalorians have success in the war, their sheer numbers.

    During the Wars, the Republic is having a tough time so Palpatine declares himself the Emperor and the Republic the Empire, for security. He secretly offers Anakin the number two spot and Anakin agrees. Palpatine is a Sith who left the fold, because he wanted to rule alone, not be a part of the larger Sith, but perhaps Anakin never knows Palpatine is a Sith. Given that Anakin has always used the dark side when it suited him, it woudln’t be such a drastic shift.

    The Wars are coming to a close and Palpatine orchestrates an event that leads the populace to believe the Jedi are a threat to the Republic. He announces they must be destroyed and puts Anakin in charge of it.

    Yoda says that the Jedi must stop the Emperor and kill Anakin. Obi-wan goes to try to turn Anakin back to good, but is unable. They fight. Anakin is horribly injured. Obi-wan believes he is dead and takes his lightsaber.

    He soon discovers Anakin lived and reemerges as Darth Vader, who is hunting down the remaining Jedi. With the populace against them, the Jedi are overwhelmed. The Empire could only have fallen with the Rebellion to support it.

    Obi-wan goes to tell Anakin’s wife what has transpired and discovers she is pregnant. He says she must leave Tattooine. Owen is unwilling to leave Tatooine, but understands the threat. He sells the family farm and Owen and Beru go into hiding on the other side of the planet and assume the name Lars. Given that the wife lives on Tattooine and prenatal care isn’t what it could be, no one knows she is carrying twins.

    The wife goes to Dagobah with Yoda. Yoda instructs Obi-wan to go watch after the Lars’ from a distance, since they are in danger and it is kind of Obi-wan’s fault. The twins are born. Yoda gives Leia to Organa to live with the royal family on Alderaan. The mother goes with Leia to Alderaan, to watch over her from a distance the way that Obi-wan was with Luke, only visiting Leia occasionally because she does not want to run the risk that Vader will find her and figure out they had a child.

    The Emperor wants any children Anakin had before the accident. Vader can’t find anyone on Tattooine, but does track his wife to Alderaan. He talks with her and doesn’t think that she children. He offers for her to come rule the galaxy as his queen. He rebukes her and he kills her.
    Yoda gives Luke to Obi-wan. Yoda does not tell Organa or Obi-wan that there are two babies. Obi-wan gives Owen and Beru Luke and agrees to watch over him, in exile, devastated at what he has done to the galaxy. Owen is happy to have the farm hand but tells Obi-wan to keep away. R2-D2 and C-3P0 end up with Antilles by the end. Obi-wan assumes the not so clever secret name Ben Kenobi. Owen, Beru, and Luke assume the name Lars until Luke is ready to know his true destiny and even name when Obi-wan tells him years later. Yoda sits on Dagobah.

    In addition to what I said, it could have been fleshed out with all sorts of interesting creatures, characters, and planets we are accustomed to (and got in the prequels).

    Oh, by the way, I like the prequels much more than you might think. I just think they could have been done better, with original trilogy dialogue as a guideline.

  9. #9

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    Droid - excellent outline, I think you did a really good job of tying things together without being as heavy-handed as Lucas was. I also agree with your take on the Anakin/wife relationship, an area that I (intentionally) didn't touch on in my brief outline.

    One of the really major failings of the PT is that, in place of giving the audience compelling stories and characters, Lucas instead places characters with names we know into situations that, we are told (and told, and told), are very IMPORTANT, so we should be very happy and grateful to see them. Problem is, these events are not particularly dramatic or compelling, and making the characters into such important people just heightens the problem. "So, the Messiah and the Queen/Senator/hottie fall in love, with disastrous consequences for the Republic."

    Much better to have, if not ordinary characters, then characters who are easier to identify with for the audience. The Jedi could have been depicted as a combination of Samurai and warrior-monks, but Lucas instead made the regrettable (and impossible to write your way out of) decision to turn them into Superheroes instead. Anakin could have been a normal man from humble beginnings, living in obscurity with his young wife on Tatooine but wanting more from life, but instead he's a slave/Messiah/cute little kid.

    Honestly, your outline is the basis of a much better trilogy than what we got, and one that would flow very nicely into the OT - why couldn't the billionaire-auteur have seen all the weak points in what he was doing?

    Rick

  10. #10

    Re: Eps 2 & 3 don't fit the very first thing in Star Wars

    Quote Originally Posted by sith_killer_99
    I have to disagree on this point.
    the movie is telling us that this is unusual in that universe's recent history
    I didn't get that at all from the crawl. What's more:
    Leia: "General Kenobi, years ago you served my father during the Clone Wars."
    Luke: "My father didn't fight in the Clone Wars."
    Both of these lines tell me that there was some big battle(s) that took place about 30 years ago, give or take.
    That's only part of what I said, your quote of my original point is out of its context, I said "By its very mention of it being "a period of civil war", the movie is telling us that this is unusual in that universe's recent history". The "this" in your quote is a period of civil war, to make your rebuttal accurate, we would HAVE to assume that the Clone Wars were indeed another civil war, but that would be putting the cart before the horse since this argument is about what ANH said, not what AOTC and ROTS later say.

    All I got from the part JT posted was that these Rebels were just getting started or finally building some momentum, afterall, this is their "first victory against the evil Galactic Empire." Which tells me that this isn't some huge division within the Empire, more like a few East Coast States deciding to break off and start a rebellion in the US. The beginings of a Civil War. Had this been some massive Civil War, I would think that there would have already been victories and losses on both sides.
    I don't see what that has to do with anything, your references are both types of civil wars, ANH says we're in a period of civil war, even if it's not a 50/50 split it's still a civil war, you say so yourself. I don't think I claimed it was a massive civil war in ANH.

    You can argue, "Why didn't they call the Clone Wars a Civil War" or "Why did they decide to call this a Civil War", but I really don't read much in to why Wars are named the way they are, that seems irrelavent to me. Would you have felt better with, it is a period of Civil Discontent or it is a period of Civil Disobedience
    No, my whole point of this thread is that the Clone Wars weren't originally supposed to be a civil war, and that AOTC and ROTS by making the Clone Wars about that do not fit with the OT in this way.


    Rick B, when Lucas first made Star Wars, he created accessable characters through the use of classic archetypes in order to give the audience an instant feeling of connection to them so he could move the story along without forcing a character play into the spotlight, and it worked very well (you probably already know this better than I, but it helps counter my next point... which you also probably know better than I ). However, when Lucas made the prequels, he seemed to abandon this notion of using archetypes because he felt he already had established characters to work with even though he was working backwards in their characterizations, and I think this forced Lucas to end up having to write out his characters to make up for that, which only further made the prequels feel out of step with the original Star Wars.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

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