Vader and Anakin: one character vs. two

[seanmcfripp]

Lots of good discussion as of late in some other threads that seem to be asking this question: Are Vader and Anakin the same person? So let's have at it, shall we? I'm guessing there are three lines of thinking here:

- They are separate entities.
- They are the same entity.
- They are a little of both.

That third one doesn't make much sense to me, but I anticipate that someone will straddle the fence anyway and take that position, so I may as well knock it out now.

I have to go with "the same entity" point of view. Who you were is always going to be a part of who you are, just as who you could be is a part of who you are right now. Prior to the suit/mask visage, I'm of the opinion that Vader is always just under the surface of the troubled Anakin we see in ATOC and ROTS, very much the same way the "good man who was your father" is right below the surface of the Vader we see in the OT. I don't necessarily agree with how the portrayal of the Anakin character was executed, but I kinda get the gist of what they were going for (just barely sometimes).

This discussion will probably lead back to some of the items brought up in other threads, but I think for the sake of efficiency, it's best that we hash everything out here.

Let's get it on!

[2-1B]

I agree, one and the same.

Luke sums it up best for me, "I have accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker . . . the name of your true self you've only forgotten."

Ben and Yoda were wrong.

[DARKLORD_67]

Anakin and Darth are one and the same.

Yoda knew this, and (contrary to popular belief) so did Obi-Wan Kenobi.

I think the ultimate point about Anakin (and I seem to be alone on this one), is that he was NEVER really an "evil bastard". In my view, this was a misguided kid who lost his way. He didn't understand the natural order of things (that everything eventually changes), and he had great emotional difficulty letting go of things that he cared deeply about.

When confronted with the brutal loss of his mother at the hands of the tusken raiders, and when confronted with the very IDEA of losing his beloved Padme, he plainly and simply... snapped.

If we look at a LOT of the horrible stuff going on in the world today, I think we can see ample examples of how even good people can be driven to do horrible things.

Look, I live in New York City, and just as much as anyone, I was horrified and traumatized by what happened in my city on Sept 11th, 2001. I will NEVER defend, nor justify the obscene actions of the terrorists that caused this nation so much pain.

However, I cannot help thinking that there was a lot of RAGE behind those acts on that day. I cannot help wondering what horrible thing it was that even ONE of these men saw in their own lives that justified this atrocity in their own minds. Did just ONE of these men lose a wife or parent to an American smart-bomb? Did just ONE of these men ever have to bury the charred remains of their small child after an American "shock and awe" operation upon their city?

If the answer to these questions is "yes", then just imagine the RAGE that consumed their hearts right up until the moment that they took their own lives on that hellish day.

Imagine the rage in YOUR own heart if YOU found YOUR mother bloodied, battered, tortured, and barely alive, and had her die in YOUR arms.

No, I'm afraid that Anakin's rage, while totally understandable, simply got the better of him and consumed his reasoning and better judgement.

[2-1B]

How did Yoda know that ?

Why did he tell Obi-Wan "the boy you trained, gone he is" ? and why did he tell Luke that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" ?

[DARKLORD_67]

How did Yoda know that ?

LUKE: Master Yoda. Is Darth Vader my father?

YODA: Rest, I need. Yes... Rest...

LUKE: Yoda, I must know.

YODA: (SIGHS) Your father he is.


Since Luke's question was NOT "Is Anakin Skywalker my father?", I have to believe that, ultimately, Yoda saw, recognized, and believed the PHYSICAL truth that Anakin and Darth were one and the same... that Darth Vader was nothing more than an angry manifestation... a vile "piece", if you will, of Anakin Skywalker himself.

Why did he tell Obi-Wan "the boy you trained, gone he is" ? and why did he tell Luke that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" ?

Once again, "interpretation" plays a role here. I believe Yoda was speaking philosophically. Him saying that the boy Obi-Wan trained was "gone" is virtually the same as Obi-Wan Kenobi's ghost telling Luke that the "... good man..." who was his father was "... destroyed...".

Even after witnessing Anakin's carnage at the Jedi temple, it was Obi-Wan Kenobi's inclination to think of him as "like my brother" (in other words, as "Anakin"). It was Yoda who "corrected" him, urging him to think spiritually.

I think that Obi-Wan and Yoda BOTH knew that we ALL have the capacity for "good" (compassion, decency, loyalty, love), and "evil" (selfishness, rage, fear, and hatred). We can see this in ALL STAR WARS characters. Heck, even Palpatine, showed the smallest glimmer of compassion when he found Anakin near death on Mustafar, and came down to that embankment just to place a gentle hand on his forehead.

But, I think, philosophically speaking, that Obi-Wan and Yoda decided (as did Palpatine) that Anakin Skywalker turned his back on the portion of HIMSELF that was capable of "good". The horror that was left over was "philosophically" and "spiritually" given a new name... Darth Vader.

Their REASONS for doing this vaired. Palpatine's reason for recognizing Darth Vader differently than Anakin Skywalker was a matter of SITH TRADITION. Yoda and Obi-Wan's reasons were borne more out of pain. It was just too painful for them both to call that murdering monster of rage "Anakin".

But in the end, they ALL recognized that this was still just one individual.

[Devo]

Lots of good discussion as of late in some other threads that seem to be asking this question: Are Vader and Anakin the same person? So let's have at it, shall we? I'm guessing there are three lines of thinking here:

- They are separate entities.
- They are the same entity.
- They are a little of both.

I think there has been a 4th line of thinking from boardmembers who are particularly harsh on the prequels - this being 'out of universe', that the Anakin of the prequels and the Vader of the OT cannot be considered the same in any sense of the word by virtue of how (as is perceived) poorly written the former is. Its an argument which I dip in and out of. I do try to believe that Jake Lloyd is Darth Vader and that Vader has an opinion on sand but its verrrrrryyyyy difficult.

[Kidhuman]

They are one in the same. The missing thing is that Anakin was born under the Gemini. He is twins and is psycho.

[JediTricks]

Not once during the Prequels did I ever feel of Anakin as "Vader" or "future Vader", reflecting now I just realized that the Prequels never made me feel like Ani was a real "Skywalker", he was this Prequel Anakin character, a total abstract from the original Star Wars, he didn't fit the description of Anakin Skywalker that I heard, nor the visage of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. So in a sense, to me there are 3 characters here, Anakin Skywalker who we meet mainly through lore and finally deed and general aurra at the end of ROTJ, Darth Vader who is the heartless villain of the OT, and Prequel Anakin who is an unrelated guy.

[stillakid]

Not once during the Prequels did I ever feel of Anakin as "Vader" or "future Vader", reflecting now I just realized that the Prequels never made me feel like Ani was a real "Skywalker", he was this Prequel Anakin character, a total abstract from the original Star Wars, he didn't fit the description of Anakin Skywalker that I heard, nor the visage of Anakin Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. So in a sense, to me there are 3 characters here, Anakin Skywalker who we meet mainly through lore and finally deed and general aurra at the end of ROTJ, Darth Vader who is the heartless villain of the OT, and Prequel Anakin who is an unrelated guy.

I'd add a fourth character, who would be the version of "Vader" at the very close of ROTS. Neither the OT Vader NOR Prequel Anakin would ever yell "Noooooooooooooooooooo!" Never in a million parsecs. I have no clue where that masked man came from.

[JediTricks]

"NOOOOO!" does feel really off, I think just a primal rage scream "rraaaagggh" would have been more appropriate, like an elongated version of the ones in ESB during the Bespin battle or perhaps a more angry version of the one when Luke takes his hand in ROTJ. Because ROTS in-suit Vader doesn't really do anything, I don't think of him as an actual entity, he's more like that Boba Fett cameo in ANH - I never think of Fett in that film.