Do you have any fears about Episode II: Attack of the Clones?

**Dar' Argol** · 03-05-2002

Originally posted by stillakid

If you take some time to read the many insightful discussions concerning TPM in the numerous other threads, then you'll see that most of us don't shoot from the hip just to cut something down. There are countless well thought out arguments concerning this issue which in turn resulted in the need for this very topic about Ep II.

I was never suggesting any one was "shooting from the hip". I apologize. This is just one of the many blastings I have since from the release of TPM. I am not one to blindly believe that all the GL puts out is gold and should be worshiped. There are a good # of things wrong with TPM. I for one, and this is my opinion, think it was a good movie and a good start to the series. But it seems to me all I see is the bad about the movie. No one comments on anything else. So, once again I am sorry. Its just one view point and a healthy debate.:happy:hi

**stillakid** · 03-05-2002

True, much of what has been written has been negative about TPM probably because it's easier to talk about the bad stuff.

It had it's positives for sure, like the Production Design, and, um, well I liked the music.

Unfortunately, the story was so poorly structured that much of it made little sense. I personally found much of the acting to be horrid (Sam Jackson, Jake Lloyd, for two). Too many inconsistencies with the OT, including, but not limited to Midichlorians and Qui Gonn Jinn. And many of the story elements were way over the top and the dialogue was designed for 5 year olds.

The balance of good vs bad things about TPM are cause of concern for what we'll be given in EP II, but I remain cautiously hopeful that GL heard the critics and fans loud and clear. I believe that is the reason he got help writing EP II and (as some of the members here believe) the reason more "spoilers" have been released to help appease the discouraged masses.

Head on over to the EP I board and post some of the great things you thought of TPM! I'm sure everyone would love to hear them and join in a "spirited" discussion.

Cheers!

**jonthejedi** · 03-06-2002

I know Mr. Lucas has always said his target audience for Star Wars is the 9-year old. I fear he pandered too much to that mentality with Phantom Menace. Most of us think Empire rocks...but did George direct it...NO! I think Mr. Lucas' skills lie in the producer/editing depts. I prayed for 10 years Mr. Spielberg or Cameron or Howard..or gosh even Chris Columbus would get a shot at directing one. I'm very optimistic that he at least got another screenwriter to help him. From what I've seen...the Clone troopers don't bother me as much as the return of battle droids from Ep. 1. After their dismal failure against the forces of Naboo...why re-employ them? Hmmmm? I am excited overall...kids don't forget to have your VCRs set Sunday night on Fox. I'm Sure this trailer will blow us off our sofas. jonthejedi

**mark2d2** · 03-11-2002

Sadly, the new trailer only heightened my concerns. It was the Phantom Menace all over again. Horrible acting. Flat, uninteresting writing. And a Yoda that is just plain odd. The CGI simply doesn't not look as realistic as the folks at Lucasfilm must think. Scene after scene looked flat out phoney.

I really enjoyed ALL three of the other trailers -- especially the Mystery Trailer. And my excitement built and built as I saw each one. The one today . . . was just a big let down.

Oh, well. I'll always have the O.T. . . .

PS -- I agree, Jonthejedi. Lucas did pander. More than that he underestimated the 9 year olds. Really. They aren't that unsophisticated.

**Tycho** · 03-11-2002

Mark2D2, I don't disagree with you. What I wonder though is this:

Is the state of computer generated graphics up to the task of creating something that is real, and making it look right?

For the specific purpose of doing vehicles and flying things, can someone at ILM take a blank screen and create an image of George W. Bush driving a green Pinto through a carwash while birds fly bye just waiting for the car to be clean again?

And make it look really real - when all of it is fake starting from scratch?

Alright, let's make it Elvis driving a 2003 Mitsubishi - something that's impossible to get real footage of today.

We know that Geonosians, Acklays, Republic Gunships, and Battle Droids are not real. So it is easier to disbelieve them in the movie. What I don't know about is the current level of achievement in Computer Generated Graphics.

ILM does the effects for Star Trek and Jurassic Park. They both consistently look pretty good. In "Clone Wars" the spider droid was a little over the top.

If Lucasfilm had actually built that thing out of parts in autoshop, or used motorized or stop-motion miniatures (like the AT-AT's filmed in 1979) and composited it, would it have been better?

Or is it the fact that 25 foot tall robotic spider droids don't exist?

**mark2d2** · 03-11-2002

My biggest gripe is that Yoda looked just, well, bizarre. Clearly, whatever the limits of the puppet were, he photographed well.

As far as the ships go --- hey, they all look great. CGI works great for ships and inanimate objects. Most droids too.

It's mainly the creatures, and any shot with a human in it against the arena that look really REALLY fake. I mean cartoonish. Like Toy Story. (Which was great, but not at all photorealistic. Nor was it trying to be...)

To be truthful, the fact that there is going to be this MASSIVE battle simply doesn't thrill me at all. It's like Episode I. I couldn't have cared less about any of the gunguns in the final battle. Or the pilots attacking the trade Federation ships. They were just this mass of casualties. I felt no connection to any of them. They were either annoying. (JarJar) Or they were barely there. (The pilots) These especially were poorly done. Just a barrage of generic Nabooians. "The deflector shield is too strong!" Who cares? These weren't characters, they were Extras with lines. In ANH you really got a sense of who each of pilots were within minutes and then as they died one by one it was quite disturbing. It was amazingly well done. In fact Return of the Jedi also suffered from this problem -- as a result it's big space battle simply isn't nearly as gripping. There's way more cool ships whizzing around. But somehow, there's little to care about.

Another concern I have is that too many things --- the 25 foot spider for example are just wierd for the sake of being wierd. Often, the designs seem a bit generic. (Everything has multiple legs, everything has tentacles...) But yes, Had you shot people against a motorized prop of this 25 foot spider it probably would have looked better.

Then there's what passes for the dialogue. There is no wit in the new films. Which ANH and ESB had in spades. The characters not only were clever. They said clever things. So far, nobody says anything even close to clever in the trailers and that's a big concern. At least to me.

**JEDIpartner** · 03-11-2002

I agree with Mark on many of his points regarding the CG business. One of my friends, who is NOT, a big SW junkie as I am, thought the CG elements were a little TOO obvious in TPM. That was just the tip of the iceberg. Now that Lucas has all of this digital technology, it seems that they are getting into less real and more digital overkill. The overall texture of the visual element is starting to suffer or cheapen, if you will. Think of how "real" the interior of the Death Star seemed. Much of that has been missing in the CG laden "interiors" of the larger sets.

As far as the "spider" thing... I dunno. I'm torn on that. There were some really great shots of the stop motion AT-ATs, but some of the close-ups and side shots looked a little odd. They really did seem like props... considering the matte painting backdrop sky was a lot bluer than the on-location shots.

**Tycho** · 03-11-2002

Mark,

I agree with you on just about everything you just posted.

I too had a problem with some of the shots of Yoda. It's just not as interesting to discuss as another point you make.

The extras. In ROTJ's space battle, if Hobbie and Janson returned on screen - and even got killed leading Green and Grey Squadrons, that would have been much more intense such as when Garven Dreis, Biggs, Gold Leader, and Porkins bit it. Or if Hobbie and Janson had to survive to continue Rogue Squadron lore, give them wingmen with names to die protecting them.

Names help a lot. Familiar characters - even extras - do too!

Yes, to the spider droid too - weird for just the sake of it? To a degree. I think the Backtoid Army devices mirror the natural lifeforms that evolve on Geonosis though. The BattleDroids look like Geonosians, hence the Spider Droid would be a "clone" of the Acklay monster.

The Arena is probably used to demostrate for weapons sales as well as for entertainment "Roman Style." I think they typically pit their new droid against its form they based it on.

This makes some sense. Today stealth fighters mirror bat-rays and airplanes are built sort of resembling birds and sharks combined, to emulate how they function in the air and in the water. (Maybe Volkswagon made its new design for "The Bug" to emulate how Danny DeVito transversus New York City!)

But still, the spider droid looks weak. If I was General Veers in that universe, I wouldn't buy it for my forces. Balmorra's heavy weapons industry that furnishes the AT-AT's and AT-ST's, and before that AT-PT's and from the looks of it, the Republic's battle walkers we just saw in the new trailer, seem made to be able to kick the tar out of anything Backtoid Armor makes! No wonder they are fighting to stay in business. "It kills Jedi" might make a strong 30 second commercial during the next Pod Race holo-cast.

**eliwankenobi** · 04-05-2002

after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!

**stillakid** · 04-05-2002

Originally posted by eliwankenobi
after the 20 year hiatus of star wars, i was bouncing off the walls with excitement for episode 1. i did the whole camp-in-line-dressed-as-a-jedi-thing on opening day and was counting the seconds to get into the theater for our show. my initial reaction was "awesome!" - even despite jar-jar.
seeing it several more times was the problem. it was then that i noticed all the inconsistancies in the film. the first trilogy had it's fun, quirky little errors, but the story was so good - without being overwhelming - and we loved the characters - ewoks? - that these inconsistancies were easily overlooked. i found the inconsistancies in episode 1 glaring and distracting though: dry characters with no depth or energy, background characters standing like mannequins staring off into space, and the gungan/battle droid ground battle was just lame.
i recall an interview with george lucas a long time ago (possibly in a galaxy far, far away) where he was ripping on sci-fi/action movies that rely on effects to carry the story so the actors don't have to. i thought that was just the case with episode 1 - a blase, predictable story with too many effects.
now, with episode 2 on the immediate horizon, i'm wary going into the theater, wondering what to expect. i want a return to the day of a fun star wars movie with characters that we cared about and exciting effects that don't overwhelm us.
now i know a bunch of you out there will call me a blasphemer for uttering these words, but i'm just as big a fan as the next one, and i'm not afraid to say that episode 1 was disappointing.
time to turn that around. come on george, do us proud!

No one can disagree with you because everything you say is fact. Episode One was lame for all the reasons that you and everyone else talks about. Don't change a word of the above.