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  1. #1

    Han vs. Greedo: THIS is what everyone's been yelling about?

    Last night, I watched the original version of ANH (er, SW, as it were). I've only seen it once before, and it was, I think, in the summer of 2004.

    Anyway, in the cantina scene, I was expecting to actually SEE Han shooting Greedo and not have Greedo even get a shot off, due to the fact that everyone's been b*tching about showing Greedo shoot. I didn't remember that it was only a big confusing puff of smoke. The way people have been complaining about it for the past nine years made it seem that it was absolutely, 100% clear that Greedo never shot (or shot slightly after Han) in the originals.

    Personally I don't care whether Greedo or Han shot first; I'm just glad that you can actually see the shooting at each other in the new version. Plus, now that the terrible-looking old version is on DVD, people can just watch that one and shut up about it.
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  2. #2
    Terrible looking old version? you serious? So, you prefer the newer, more hip version where Han's body does a random arse jerk (that looks really awful) and Greedo somehow misses Han even though his blaster is a mere a few inches from Han?

    Different strokes, I guess.
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  3. #3
    I don't care about who shot first either. Actually I watched it and it was nice to see the old cantina aliens, but over all, the sound quality is terrible (when using a fiber optic/digital sound). Picture is grainy, the effects shots, especially the X-Wings look slow and dated.

    I ask this...if the Han/Greedo thing wasn't changed, but the rest of them were still there would you care at all? Or would it still upset you?
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  4. #4
    Mr Jabba, the problem is this: when Han shoots first, he's introduced as a cold-blooded person, willing to do whatever it takes to look after himself. That's KEY.... because no one expects he'll come back to help Luke at the end. It should be surprising, and totally out of (what we thought was Han's) character for him to rescue Luke. By giving Han just cause to shoot Greedo (Greedo trying to kill him makes it "okay" for Han to blast him), you're completely changing the way the character is introduced.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jjreason View Post
    Mr Jabba, the problem is this: when Han shoots first, he's introduced as a cold-blooded person, willing to do whatever it takes to look after himself. That's KEY.... because no one expects he'll come back to help Luke at the end. It should be surprising, and totally out of (what we thought was Han's) character for him to rescue Luke. By giving Han just cause to shoot Greedo (Greedo trying to kill him makes it "okay" for Han to blast him), you're completely changing the way the character is introduced.
    Yeah, I know that, but what I'm saying here is that we never actually SEE Han shooting Greedo, there's just a big explosion and then Greedo's dead. So there's no way of knowing whether Greedo shot or not.

    And as far as the justification goes, well, Greedo did have a gun in his face and was threatening him anyway ("Over my dead body!" "That's the idea!"), so I kind of see it as justified whether or not Greedo shot first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedi Master Guyute
    Terrible looking old version? you serious? So, you prefer the newer, more hip version where Han's body does a random arse jerk (that looks really awful) and Greedo somehow misses Han even though his blaster is a mere a few inches from Han?
    I was more referring to the overall film, not just that scene. The cleanup on the 2004 version is just miles ahead of the 1977 one. And I hate Han's jerk in the 1997 one; they re-did it in 2004 and it looks better. Plus, if you take the EU into account in this one, Greedo was young and inexperienced (Han was his first would-be bounty) so it's not that unlikely that he missed.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    Yeah, I know that, but what I'm saying here is that we never actually SEE Han shooting Greedo, there's just a big explosion and then Greedo's dead. So there's no way of knowing whether Greedo shot or not.
    The implication is quite clear. We see Greedo's gun pointed at Han. Then Han's hand going for his own gun under the table. The dialogue builds to a climax...

    "Over my dead body"

    BLAM!

    No question about it, Han had no intention of having the green guy shoot first. Han Solo was a rogue who had his own concerns as a priority. He wouldn't give 2 sh**s if Greedo had 10 Greedlings at home to feed, Greedo was going down.

    But Lucas was very clear that he understood what the original version showed, but in his elder gentler years, the flanneled-one didn't want to have a cold-blooded killer's blood on his hands. Han had turned into a hero and Lucas didn't want kids to think that killing in cold-blood was cool, so he made a character arc change that also fails technically.

    Just a big mistake.

  7. #7
    It was a ridiculous PC change by Lucas, and as Mr. JabbaJohnL pointed out, you can barely see what is going on; so it was also completely unnecessary.

    Even if Han shot first, it wouldn't make him a cold-blooded killer, he had a gun aimed right at him being wielded by an alien who voiced every intention of killing him. Anything Han did at that point would have been considered self-defense in any court of law.

    So it was a pathetic attempt at backtracking on Lucas' part and something that never should have been added to the movie.
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  8. #8
    What makes it dumb is that in a 2004 interview with Entertainment Weekly, Lucas said he changed the scene (to match what he supposedly always had in mind ) because he said it was impossible to redeem in the eyes of the audience someone who's introduced as a cold-blooded killer.

    Um, hello? Did you forget that, taken as a whole, the series is about the redemption of Anakin Skywalker and, like it or not, the first time anyone saw him he was strangling prisoners with his bare hands?
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    The implication is quite clear. We see Greedo's gun pointed at Han. Then Han's hand going for his own gun under the table. The dialogue builds to a climax...

    "Over my dead body"

    BLAM!
    No, it goes:

    Han: "Over my dead body!"
    Greedo: "That's the idea! I've been looking forward to this for a long time."
    Han: "Yes, I'll bet you have."

    And then the shot(s) and/or cloudy explosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada
    Even if Han shot first, it wouldn't make him a cold-blooded killer, he had a gun aimed right at him being wielded by an alien who voiced every intention of killing him. Anything Han did at that point would have been considered self-defense in any court of law.
    Right, so the whole supposed character arc of going from a dirty killer to a nice guy was never really there. As stillakid said himself:
    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    The implication is quite clear.
    So it was all implied that Han shot first anyway. It wasn't outright stated, yet everyone came to the conclusion and then started complaining (and still are complaining) about the change are moaning about how Han shot first and there's no two ways about it. But it was a big confusing mess in the old version, and there wasn't any REAL reason to tell who shot first, just implications.

    As far as being cold-blooded, I mean, if someone came up to you with a gun and threatened you, what the hell would you do? It's not like Han shot Wuher in the face for overcharging him for a drink; he killed Greedo, a bounty hunter, who had planned on killing him. He didn't give Greedo the peace sign and stick a flower in his gun, he still blasted the crap out of him.

    So why does it really matter if Han shot first or not? He was in a life-or-death situation and it was his only option.

    Quote Originally Posted by stillakid
    Han Solo was a rogue who had his own concerns as a priority.
    But that was still shown throughout the film anyway; that point is driven home whether or not Han shot first.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    No, it goes:

    Han: "Over my dead body!"
    Greedo: "That's the idea! I've been looking forward to this for a long time."
    Han: "Yes, I'll bet you have."

    And then the shot(s) and/or cloudy explosion.


    Right, so the whole supposed character arc of going from a dirty killer to a nice guy was never really there. As stillakid said himself:

    So it was all implied that Han shot first anyway. It wasn't outright stated, yet everyone came to the conclusion and then started complaining (and still are complaining) about the change are moaning about how Han shot first and there's no two ways about it. But it was a big confusing mess in the old version, and there wasn't any REAL reason to tell who shot first, just implications.

    As far as being cold-blooded, I mean, if someone came up to you with a gun and threatened you, what the hell would you do? It's not like Han shot Wuher in the face for overcharging him for a drink; he killed Greedo, a bounty hunter, who had planned on killing him. He didn't give Greedo the peace sign and stick a flower in his gun, he still blasted the crap out of him.

    So why does it really matter if Han shot first or not? He was in a life-or-death situation and it was his only option.


    But that was still shown throughout the film anyway; that point is driven home whether or not Han shot first.
    No, it wasn't. It was diluted by the pu**ywhipped version where Han has to be shown to be shooting in self-defense. There's a HUGE difference. I used the word "implied" but the scene is very specific in telling the audience that Han Solo was going to blow Greedo away before the bounty hunter could get a shot off.

    Lucas's own "redeux" PROVES that the original had Han shooting first. Two things had to be "fixed" to make it look like Han didn't shoot first. Number one is Greedo's shot. His gun is pointed right at Solo in both versions, but Lucas had to "tweak" the blast so that it flies far right. Not a chance that could have happened. Solo would have had a blast right in his chest judging by the aim of Greedo's gun. So to help "fix" that a little more, Han is "fixed" by being moved slightly to his left by the FX team. Lucas had to fix those elements because it was never filmed in a way that would allow Greedo to shoot first and have Han live.

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