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  1. #1

    Lucas dooms from the beginning Phantom Menance

    I thought the Phantom Menance had the tools to be one of the top Star Wars films but Lucas doomed it from the beginning.

    1. He made it a children's film by inserting all the childish level comedy surrounding Jar Jar Binks.

    2. The voice overs of the alien spieces were also border line comical. He would have been better off inventing languages and using subtests.

    3. Jake Llyod as Anakin Skywalker. Everything here was wrong! He played this part too young but yet some off the lines in the script were ridiculous. The second time he meets Padme, he invites her to HIS PLACE to wait out the storm. Every other 10 year old would invite them back to his and his mother's home. It is like he is hitting on her because when he first meets her he asks her if she is an angel. She is dressed and looks like any other human girl on Tatooine, is he hitting on her again?

    4. He and his mother are suppose to be slaves? They have their own place way across town, you would think they would live next to the shop. He is 10 years old has a robot and a pod racer, that his master doesn't know about. How does a 10 year old slave build a pod racer that his master doesn't know about?

    5. Qui-Gon Jinn wants to keep a low profile after they escape Naboo. So he takes a Gungan with him (a species only found on Naboo) as he searches for a hyperdrive. A person, who got exiled from of his own city because of his culmliness and stands out like a red flag. Gungan's a species that live under water but the heat of Tatooine did not seem to bother Jar Jar?

    6. The voices he gives to trade federation's robot soldiers "roger, Roger!" are as bad as the aliens.

    7. Mace Windu saying that Jinn's attacker can't be a sith and then sends Obi-wan and Jinn to protect the Queen and hopefully draw out the Sith!

    8. Padme saying to Anakin after they leave Tatooine that she really cares for him, they just met (she's 15/16 and he is 10). Now let's put this in prospective she is a Queen of a whole planet that has just been invaded and her people are being killed and tortured, including her family. But, yet she finds time to become emotionly attached to a 10 year old boy?

    9. Two Sith, no further than a Super Star Destroyer away from a whole temple of Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans and yet no one ever picks up that the dark side is at work in the Senate chambers? How everyone above the age 10 in the audience knew that Paplatine was the head sith from the get go was the worst directing of a trilogy!

    10. Why didn't Jinn leave Anakin at the Jedi Temple where it was safe and he could of started his training. The whole time during the battle he is telling Anakin to find a safe place to hide. If you were so worried about the boy, why take him into the war zone.

    11. Anakin promises his mother he will free her, after Naboo is free don't you think Padme would givin' him enough money to do this considering their whole relationship on the Naboo starship and what he did from them. I can keep going but I will stop here to get your feedback.

    I think Phantom Menance had a lot of potential but these flaws are major and hurt the movie and point to some of the things others have complained about.

    Plus.. Lucas kills one of his greatest creations DARTH MAUL! I would have rather seen Count Dooku die here!!

  2. #2
    12. The absence of 2-1B, which immediately made it one of the 3 worst Star Wars movies along with Attack of the Clones and A New Hope.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by parana View Post
    I thought the Phantom Menance had the tools to be one of the top Star Wars films but Lucas doomed it from the beginning.

    1. He made it a children's film by inserting all the childish level comedy surrounding Jar Jar Binks.

    2. The voice overs of the alien spieces were also border line comical. He would have been better off inventing languages and using subtests.

    3. Jake Llyod as Anakin Skywalker. Everything here was wrong! He played this part too young but yet some off the lines in the script were ridiculous. The second time he meets Padme, he invites her to HIS PLACE to wait out the storm. Every other 10 year old would invite them back to his and his mother's home. It is like he is hitting on her because when he first meets her he asks her if she is an angel. She is dressed and looks like any other human girl on Tatooine, is he hitting on her again?

    4. He and his mother are suppose to be slaves? They have their own place way across town, you would think they would live next to the shop. He is 10 years old has a robot and a pod racer, that his master doesn't know about. How does a 10 year old slave build a pod racer that his master doesn't know about?

    5. Qui-Gon Jinn wants to keep a low profile after they escape Naboo. So he takes a Gungan with him (a species only found on Naboo) as he searches for a hyperdrive. A person, who got exiled from of his own city because of his culmliness and stands out like a red flag. Gungan's a species that live under water but the heat of Tatooine did not seem to bother Jar Jar?

    6. The voices he gives to trade federation's robot soldiers "roger, Roger!" are as bad as the aliens.

    7. Mace Windu saying that Jinn's attacker can't be a sith and then sends Obi-wan and Jinn to protect the Queen and hopefully draw out the Sith!

    8. Padme saying to Anakin after they leave Tatooine that she really cares for him, they just met (she's 15/16 and he is 10). Now let's put this in prospective she is a Queen of a whole planet that has just been invaded and her people are being killed and tortured, including her family. But, yet she finds time to become emotionly attached to a 10 year old boy?

    9. Two Sith, no further than a Super Star Destroyer away from a whole temple of Jedi Masters, Knights and Padawans and yet no one ever picks up that the dark side is at work in the Senate chambers? How everyone above the age 10 in the audience knew that Paplatine was the head sith from the get go was the worst directing of a trilogy!

    10. Why didn't Jinn leave Anakin at the Jedi Temple where it was safe and he could of started his training. The whole time during the battle he is telling Anakin to find a safe place to hide. If you were so worried about the boy, why take him into the war zone.

    11. Anakin promises his mother he will free her, after Naboo is free don't you think Padme would givin' him enough money to do this considering their whole relationship on the Naboo starship and what he did from them. I can keep going but I will stop here to get your feedback.

    I think Phantom Menance had a lot of potential but these flaws are major and hurt the movie and point to some of the things others have complained about.

    Plus.. Lucas kills one of his greatest creations DARTH MAUL! I would have rather seen Count Dooku die here!!
    1. Making Jar Jar a clumsy oaf wasn't necessarily a bad idea, but establishing that part of this character with trite and tired television-grade, slapstick humor was the problem.

    2. The alien "accents" were a little strange, especially since there is no precedent for them in the OT. The only one that I did like was Watto, however, I thought his voice was done very well. Overall though, it would have been better to just do the alien languages with subtitles or have everyone speak normally.

    3. I wouldn't really blame Jake Lloyd because I think Lucas got the character wrong at the concept stage. There was no reason for him to be that young. Making Anakin older in Ep1 could have allowed them to use the same actor for all three films, thereby creating greater cohesion for the character.

    4. I guess the tracking devices would eliminate the need to keep the slaves close by. But, I don't understand why it was necessary for Anakin to be a slave other than to help justify the podrace sequence. It has absolutely no context in the rest of the trilogy.

    5. For the record, Jar Jar does make a mention about the sun being too hot. And having Jar Jar around was necessary to lighten the mood of the sequence, because we all know how dark and depressing a story about a kid winning a race against a bunch of Saturday-morning-cartoon aliens can be.

    6. It became very difficult to perceive the Battle Droids as a threat with those silly voices, which in turn made the Naboo seem like grand idiots for surrendering to these robots within minutes of their landing.

    7. Mace Windu was a worthless character and really made me hate the Jedi.

    8. Well, people tend to form very strong bonds with those around them very quickly during times of crisis. So that's understandable. But it should have been played.... differently and not so creepy.

    9. Just shows how arrogant and overconfident the Jedi had become. Not a problem for me. I don't think the Palpatine/Sidious thing was supposed to be that big of a secret to the audience, just the characters. It's known as dramatic irony (when the audience is privy to information that the characters are not) and was a common literary device in the works of Shakespeare, among others.

    10. Well, the Jedi were accustomed to kidnapping children away from their parents as infants and arming them with weapons that could cut through solid metal. So, Qui-Gonn would be just stupid enough to think that was a good idea.

    11. Again, the Jedi are idiots for thinking that Anakin could just forget about his mother and for not arranging to get her out of slavery on Tatooine. You'd think they would at least send a couple of Jedi down to rescue her and shut down Watto's operation, since slavery was supposed to be illegal in that galaxy.
    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence… When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

  4. #4
    come to think of it why didn't Qui-gon just slice and dice Watto and take the boy and his mother plus the hyperdrive unit. and why would Watto be in possesion of such an article when everything else he owns is a pile of scrappy junk?
    They could have walked in dealt with the situation in moments and be gone. Shmi would have fitted right in with the Naboo way of life being such a sensitive and pragmatic person. would have left an opening for Palpatine to know about her and have her assasinated and use her death rather than padme's as leverage on Anakin.

    Maul should have escaped and come back in AOTC and ROTS. Dooku was useless. A total waste of time. Maul at least brought something exciting to the dueling. looked menacing and again it was a waste of time developing him only to kill him off after a few minutes of screen time.

    If they'd spent less time dressing Padme up like some weird doll and more time developing her character through private emotion and thought process the relationship with Anakin might have made sense. it only makes sense in the cut scene from AOTC where padme talks about the species she tried to help that got wiped out. she has an affinity with those less fortunate than herself and feels compelled to care and help. experiencing the conditions in which Anakin and Shmi live brings out her caring nurturing side. but you only get that if you can read between the lines and flip flop between movies and all the cut bits.

    The Jedi are arrogant and blind as any organisation, cult or religion. binding themselves up in rules and regulations and traditions. Palpatine is able to use that against them because of their natural tendency to simply follow set procedures. he knows what will grind their gears and that means they become easy to manipulate. so easy it takes no effort and he can be as chilled and blase about the jedi as he likes. with no fear there's no obvious sign of evil within Palpatine, aside from the same evil that inhabits every ambitious politician. The senate building would be awash with vibes of fear and intent it would be hard for the jedi to single out any individual. even if the Jedi suspected palpatine they don't have any proof of anything. Not until it's all too late.

    There were subtitles in the OT and kids got it. why GL thought kids of '99 wouldn't get that too i don't know but he certainly dumbed down the prequels in that sense. I can understand why Lott Dod might speak basic but Nute and Rune didn't really have any need to. and the battle droids as a single force had far too much individuality to them. and varying voices. a single monotone electronic voice would have been more chilling. I also think they should have looked more threatening.

    Personally i think great chunks of all three prequals could be cut and the three movies spliced together to make a better, faster flowing more cohesive single prequal movie.

    which isn't to say i hate the prequels. on the contrary, there's many aspects I truly like. I simply feel that they drag on far too long and there are far too many superfluous detours in the story. just because you can do something doesn't mean you should and the prequels all too often slip into indulgence and what Lucas likes to call whimsy. to the detriment of the story. he should have saved a lot of the sub plots and detours for his tv show. made the tv show a sort of live action comic book. covering the whole time frame of the saga not just the period between ROTS and ANH.

  5. #5
    Once I saw Attack of the Clones it was one of my chief complaints with the story that Anakin would have been a hero to the people of Naboo on several levels, the Queen had some great attachment to Anakin, Padme herself was disgusted that Shmi was in slavery and knew that Anakin was troubled to leave her, yet ten years later we are to believe that Anakin was just told to stop thinking about his mother and that the Naboo did nothing to help her.

    I actually thought Anakin WOULD go back to free the slaves since he had a dream that he did. Maybe he would find out his mother was dead, that he could free the slaves, but it was too late for her.

    I also found it odd that Anakin didn't see Padme for ten years, but did see Palpatine. I would have thought Anakin would have requested that his powerful friend do something to help his mother. It would have made Anakin more indebted to Palpatine, even if Palpatine eventually manipulated the situation so Anakin still lost his mother.

  6. #6
    You have to remember in the OT, Lucas didn't let the audience in on who the key players were ( who were the sith in PT) he left that up to be cliff hangers. Darth Varder = Luke Skywalker father, Luke and Leia = brother and sister. So, if he really did make it that obvious that Paplatine was the Sith then he went total opposite from his style in OT. Remember in AOTC, he tries to convinces the audiences that it is the Republic that is on the wrong side with Count Dooku, who at that time is just a Jedi Master, who feels the council has last its way.

    Dooku is the worst Sith apprentice in the history of Star Wars! Supposely using the dark side ages oneself and comsumes their life force. Dooku didn't have any to start with. Those lightsaber battles he were in were so sad.

    Why did Lucas have to put in that Shmi just woke up and she was pregnant with Anakin? Is Lucas tell us, Anakin is Jesus and Jesus was vital reason that the evil conquers good! There is no reason for this to even be in the script because if only the parents of Anakin don't matter because you don't have to be a Jedi to have a children with force powers. This is clearly stated because the Council doesn't allow Jedi to get married and have children but yet you still have more Jedi!

    I think the technology was to advanced in the PT, he forgot he was going back in time. Alot of people have commented about all the gadets that R2D2 has in the PT but doesn't possess in the OT. The ships were much more advanced in PT and more run downdown in OT and we should have seen more of the OT ships in the PT but looking brand new (z-95 Headhunters and Dreadnoughts). I agree he tries to overwhelm his audience with all the new toys that are available to the industry.

    I do think there is a lot of good in the TPM, I thought it could have been great, but I can help thinking how great it could have been.

  7. #7
    Yeah the situation around Anakin's mother was ridiculous. Theres no logical reason why she wouldn't have been rescued, no logical reason why the jedi would not have gotten involved on anakin's behalf - even to buy watto out if not take shmi back by force. Its just so contradictory to their supposed ethos and role in the galaxy - the guardians of peace and justice. And they should have known better, that anakin would grow up resentful - a far worse thing for his prospects as a jedi than this 'attachments' and 'fear of loss' they seemed to be worried about. Quite frankly the Prequels portrayed the jedi as complete idiots, order 66 couldn't come soon enough. And worst of all them was Mace *state the obvious* Windu. "I sense a plot to destroy the jedi".... you don't say.

    Likewise I found the alien 'accents' and battle droid voices totally at odds with anything from the OT but that would be one of the lesser complaints about the prequels.

  8. #8
    Ya, the forget your mother, who cares if she is a slave thing was so stupid.

    And R2 flying bugged me more than I can say.

  9. #9
    I said I wouldn't step into PT fights, but I wanted to clear a few things up, so the rest of you guys can discuss it, I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by parana
    You have to remember in the OT, Lucas didn't let the audience in on who the key players were ( who were the sith in PT) he left that up to be cliff hangers. Darth Varder = Luke Skywalker father, Luke and Leia = brother and sister. So, if he really did make it that obvious that Paplatine was the Sith then he went total opposite from his style in OT.
    While it may have been obvious to you, or to many others who watched the OT first and already knew Palpatine was evil, it wasn't blatantly obvious until ROTS. There were even threads here where people wondered whether or not Palpatine and Sidious were the same person. It's obvious looking back that they're the same person but to many watching them the first time through it's not clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by parana
    Remember in AOTC, he tries to convinces the audiences that it is the Republic that is on the wrong side with Count Dooku, who at that time is just a Jedi Master, who feels the council has last its way.
    Dooku had been a Sith (we can assume) ever since Darth Maul died. Around that time (ten years before AOTC), Dooku left the Jedi Order, had a hand in the creation of the clone army (which varies depending on which source you read), and became Darth Tyranus. The Jedi knew that he had left the Order and started the Confederacy of Independent Systems; they didn't know the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by parana
    Dooku is the worst Sith apprentice in the history of Star Wars! Supposely using the dark side ages oneself and comsumes their life force. Dooku didn't have any to start with. Those lightsaber battles he were in were so sad.
    There is no evidence in any of the films or legitimate EU (as far as I know) that says using the Dark Side ages or drains someone. Vader was not as strong since he was half machine; Palpatine was not as strong in ROTJ since he was 91 years old (but still pretending to not be as powerful as he really was); Maul was young and a great fighter; Dooku had been a powerful Jedi and this carried over to him as a Sith.

    Why did Lucas have to put in that Shmi just woke up and she was pregnant with Anakin? Is Lucas tell us, Anakin is Jesus and Jesus was vital reason that the evil conquers good! There is no reason for this to even be in the script because if only the parents of Anakin don't matter because you don't have to be a Jedi to have a children with force powers. This is clearly stated because the Council doesn't allow Jedi to get married and have children but yet you still have more Jedi!
    Lucas was not trying to push Christianity, if that's what you're saying; this was simply another in a long line of him using pieces of old religions, myths, or stories and repurposing them for this story. (He said at CIII he was raised Lutheran and now lives in a Buddhist area, but didn't explicitly say what religion he is.) Anakin's origins add mystery to the prophecy of the Chosen One; if you feel that it was unnecessary, well then there you go. But we can assume from dialogue in TPM and ROTS that Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians, probably by the bidding of Plagueis or Sidious.

    The Jedi serve the Republic; Tatooine is not in the Republic. Qui-Gon tried to free her but it didn't work; Cliegg later did it anyway so it all worked out. But the Jedi would have wanted to keep Anakin from his mother, as attachment of that sort was of course forbidden.
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  10. #10
    Here we go again. Can't we just get Caesar to dig up the hundred or so threads pertaining to each individual point?
    It's a blacked-out blur but I'm pretty sure it ruled.

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