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  1. #1

    Darth Vader was NOT using the Dark Side!!!!

    An epiphany tonight on my way back home from work.

    Darth Vader (OT Vader) did NOT use the Dark Side of the Force. Really! Think about it...

    The first time we see Vader in ANH, he chokes Antilles to death by picking the guy up by the neck with his gloved hand. Vader is angry.. VERY angry, but does NOT use the Force to choke the guy.

    EVERY OTHER TIME we see Vader in the OT, he is CALM and AT PEACE when he kills USING THE FORCE.

    In ESB, Luke asks, "How will I know" when wondering how to know the good side from the bad. Yoda responds, "You will know! When you are calm, at peace."

    Vader was not a Dark Side user! He only used the Force when he was calm and at peace!



    This was a revelation! Couple that with the fact that Palpatine wasn't a Force user either until throwing blue lightning in ROTJ, it seems as though the first Jedi who uses the Dark Side at all is Luke in ESB! Luke is the bad guy!


    OMG! Not sure how I never saw this before.

  2. #2
    Well, based on Ep3, Obi-Wan is a Sith Lord, so it wouldn't surprise me if Vader was really a good guy the whole time.
    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence… When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

  3. #3
    Vader choked Motti via the Force, he used it for attack rather than only defense and knowledge, and he used it for selfish gains and service to his evil master. That's the Dark Side.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

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    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  4. #4
    Vader also killed defenseless children out of fear of losing Padme.

    I don't think he ever used fear or anger as a weapon after Padmes death.
    I consider Vader to be a mindless slave, hoping that someone puts him out of his misery until he discovers Lukes alive. There is a great line in "The Force Unleashed" game where Proxy does his linkup with Vader. After Vader cuts transmission, Proxy says, "I hate being him". Starkiller replies, "I think he does to."
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  5. #5
    Hey, he may be a cold blooded killer, but at least he's a light-side cold blooded killer. C'mon?!

    Didn't use fear or anger as a weapon? What about Adm Motti being choked? What about all the other admirals / ship captains Vader makes examples of? How about Vader's reminder to Piett that he (Piett) was now an admiral?

    How about Vader planting seeds of fear and doubt in Luke to turn him (ESB)?

    What do you mean about Palpatine? Not seeing him use his powers until the end made him a more effective villian, highlighting his strentgh. He was so strong he didn't need to use his powers.

    At what point in ESB does Luke use the DS? In the cave? Or RotJ?
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dr_evazan22 View Post
    Hey, he may be a cold blooded killer, but at least he's a light-side cold blooded killer. C'mon?!

    Didn't use fear or anger as a weapon? What about Adm Motti being choked? What about all the other admirals / ship captains Vader makes examples of? How about Vader's reminder to Piett that he (Piett) was now an admiral?

    How about Vader planting seeds of fear and doubt in Luke to turn him (ESB)?

    What do you mean about Palpatine? Not seeing him use his powers until the end made him a more effective villian, highlighting his strentgh. He was so strong he didn't need to use his powers.

    At what point in ESB does Luke use the DS? In the cave? Or RotJ?
    Sure, he used fear and intimidation to rule, BUT he didn't use anger when he used the Force. Whenever he killed, he was calm and at peace EXCEPT for when he killed Antilles and he DID NOT use the Force in that instance.

    So as brought up so far, Vader does USE and HAVE anger, BUT he doesn't use those feelings when he kills or uses the Force in other instances.

    And to be clear, we're looking at the ESTABLISHED CONTINUITY of the Original Trilogy with an acknowledgment that the Prequels interrupt and alter that established continuity. If we are to forget the multiple issues that clearly illustrate a disconnect between the Anakin/Vader of the Prequels and Vader/Anakin of the OT, it still shows that the OT Vader does not use the Dark Side of the Force when he uses the Force. He is never angry or out of control when he Force-chokes or move things around or "senses" things/people. He is always calm and at peace. Those are the path the the Good Side of the Force.

    It is LUKE who uses the Dark Side 100% of the time. Not that there is a problem with that because that's pretty much the point of his character arc... him being young and naive and only half-trained leads to him being very dangerous. Luke channels the Force in the Death Star Trench out of revenge for Obi Wan's and his Aunt and Uncle's deaths. Luke goes to Bespin to kill Vader out of revenge. Luke grabs his lightsaber in Palpatine's throne room out of anger. Again, this is all part of HIS character so it makes sense.

    But Vader is the one who is supposed to be the one fully entrenched in the Dark Side, yet we never see him angry and out of control when using the Force.

  7. #7
    Hey buddy! Right now I think you're using the dark side to make your argument!

    My thoughts on what you wrote are that you are adding your own feelings / interpretations to what was actually shown in the films. Luke taking revenge in the trench? I just don't see it. Because its a movie we can't actually know the characters thoughts, but the body language does not support this, IMO.

    Luke goes to Bespin to kill Vader? I thought he went to save his friends?

    While I'll agree that when Luke grabbed his ls on DS2 it was in anger and desperation, I'll also say it was, again, to save his friends. I'll also say it was only one step along a path, and that when Luke realized what path he was on he stopped.

    I'd have to watch the movie or look up the script, but I seem to recall Yoda saying that "anger, fear and aggression" lead to the ds. Replaying Vader scenes in my mind (however warped it may be), I may not see a lot of anger or fear in Vader himself, I do see him trying to instill them in others. However, I do see aggression in Vader in most scenes.
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  8. #8
    Luke does use anger over being tricked by the empire when he grabs the lightsaber on the Death Star and does use his fear of protecting Leia from Vader when he chops off Vaders hand.
    But I don't see it in those other situations.

    I agree with you on Vader though.
    I think he's just going through the motions. Everyone he knew is dead because of him. He's just doing his job because he has nothing better to do. People that lose their spouses and children usually go through it. They don't get angry or happy, they're not dead but they're not alive, they're just there, going through the motions.
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  9. #9
    The problem is we're dealing with Vader 20 years after he did the major deeds. He became big E-Evil with the Padawan slaughter, never mind the rest of the Temple. He hates himself for being tricked/conned into believing Palpy would help him save Padme from his visions, and 20 years is a long time to let a lot of hate boil in. Every act he does than is just little-e evil.

    The Force Unleashed scene with Proxy and Starkiller reminds me of my favorite Star Wars Tales issue, even though outside the continuity, Maul vs Vader. The Prophets of the Darkside resurrect or clone Maul to show Sidious that Vader isn't true Sith. They fight, and Vader just kicks Maul all over the place. Maul in disbelief goes on some tirade of the like, "What can you hate so much that makes you more powerful than me?" and Vader's reply is "Myself" and kills Maul for good.

    Outside of Force choking half the Imperial fleet, in ESB we can infer he just tortures Han Solo just because he can and more to affect Leia and Chewie. By this point, that has to be little e- evil. Next comes Shadows of the Empire, basically killing anyone who stands in his way of finding Luke.

    Because we're trying to infer state of mind, I'd suggest reading something like Dark Lord or Purge. Early on Vader was obsessed with killing/taking revenge on Obi-Wan. He sort of calmed down, got bitter and I'll agree, went through the motions until discovering Luke was alive.
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  10. #10
    Maybe Vaders meditation chamber has something to do with it. I mean he probably doesn't get ESPN up on the death star, so instead he meditates, gets his helmet sweat cleeaned out, and has a nice microwave dinner.
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