Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 41 to 46 of 46
  1. #41
    Because this long post for me to reply to, I'm going to do something a little bit different and use some dictation software to write it. I'll try and watch for bizarre mistakes, but hopefully this should keep the normal level of dyslexic errors to extreme minimum.

    First, the proper terminology is outgassing. You reach into a solvent, like water, and outgas into an atmosphere. So technically your step dad is right there is no leaching occurring, unless you happen to store your figures in water. However he's wrong about the materials. Plasticizers do not bond to the plastic to become part of the polymer chain. If they did the result would be a copolymer. Plasticizers are dispersants in the matrix of plastic. It's more analogous to an alloy where you have molecules plasticizer trapped by chains of polymer. Also the US and EU aren't talking about banning Phthalates, a whole class of plasticizers, because they're staying put in plastic.

    Second, I still think what I'm saying about plasticizer loss is still not coming across well. You have to lose a lot of plasticizers before you start seeing effects due to loss of the material. With vintage figures we are still not seeing any major negative facts on the plastic itself due to plasticizer outgassing. So I highly doubt you see any noticeable difference with your pressure test. What I am saying, is that a residue that is formed on the surface of the figure is evidence of some type of outgassing. The most likely additive that I can think of that would out gas is the most volatile. The most volatile additive that I can think of would be the plasticizer.

    A tacky figure itself is not necessarily a sign of plastic breakdown, but it shouldn't be ignored. In the case of the battle droids I find it to be slightly disturbing because I know these figures were not tacky, sticky, or oily when I bought them. It's a change that is occurred while I have owned them. Something is leaving this sticky residue behind. Additives are in the plastic for a reason, into something is outgassing it is no longer serving its purpose in the plastic. The long-term prospects of storing plastics for say 50 to 100 years are what I'm concerned about when I talk about plasticizer loss.

    I assumed Lego bricks didn't have a plasticizer because of the polybutadiene. Polybutadiene is an artificial rubber and has many of the characteristics that a plasticizer would have. I spent 3 and half hours searching for what additives Lego adds to it it's ABS. But couldn't find anything beyond the conform to government safety standards. So I'll stick by my original assumption unless you come up with anything to the contrary.

    So back to the discoloration, your step dad is absolutely right about white being very difficult to get right and keep consistent. I think it's a little hard to absolutely rule out UV exposure unless you've kept your figures in a sealed black container. Many households light sources are capable of putting out small amounts of UV. Also photochemical reactions can happen with lower energy visible light. However in this case I think oxidation is more likely cause. Given what I currently know about the flame retardants, I would say they are your most likely culprit.

    Well I hope I've caught most of the mistakes, but a long post like this and I'm likely to have missed a few.
    "I'm sick and tried of these motherfrakkking Sith on this motherfrakkker plane!"
    Mace Windu - Episode 2.5: Sith on a Plane

  2. #42
    LusiferSam, that was a very intelligently-written post. Since this is the internet, I am obligated to respond stupidly.

    Plasticsizer makes yer feets stink! LOL! Buuuuuuurn! I got u good!
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by LusiferSam View Post
    First, the proper terminology is outgassing. You reach into a solvent, like water, and outgas into an atmosphere. So technically your step dad is right there is no leaching occurring, unless you happen to store your figures in water. However he's wrong about the materials. Plasticizers do not bond to the plastic to become part of the polymer chain. If they did the result would be a copolymer. Plasticizers are dispersants in the matrix of plastic. It's more analogous to an alloy where you have molecules plasticizer trapped by chains of polymer. Also the US and EU aren't talking about banning Phthalates, a whole class of plasticizers, because they're staying put in plastic.
    ABS is a copolymer, it polymerizes Acrylonitrile and Styrene in the presence of polybutadiene: http://plastics.inwiki.org/Acrylonit...adiene_styrene
    http://www.matweb.com/reference/abspolymer.aspx

    Also, I don't see your analogy to an alloy, as I understand it, an alloy is a matrix of elements, not a sandwich of elements.

    Second, I still think what I'm saying about plasticizer loss is still not coming across well. You have to lose a lot of plasticizers before you start seeing effects due to loss of the material. With vintage figures we are still not seeing any major negative facts on the plastic itself due to plasticizer outgassing. So I highly doubt you see any noticeable difference with your pressure test. What I am saying, is that a residue that is formed on the surface of the figure is evidence of some type of outgassing. The most likely additive that I can think of that would out gas is the most volatile. The most volatile additive that I can think of would be the plasticizer.

    A tacky figure itself is not necessarily a sign of plastic breakdown, but it shouldn't be ignored. In the case of the battle droids I find it to be slightly disturbing because I know these figures were not tacky, sticky, or oily when I bought them. It's a change that is occurred while I have owned them. Something is leaving this sticky residue behind. Additives are in the plastic for a reason, into something is outgassing it is no longer serving its purpose in the plastic. The long-term prospects of storing plastics for say 50 to 100 years are what I'm concerned about when I talk about plasticizer loss.
    50 to 100 years is likely beyond the operational life of the plastic itself though, so the plastic would be breaking down and then leaching out the components. The plastic on these is not breaking down, if you lose the plasticizer from the finished product, the material left behind loses the characteristics it gained from the plasticizer. That's why I argued it was outgassing excess plasticizer that was never amalgamated into the matrix to begin with, not suffering a breakdown of the material itself which has the plasticizer as an integral component.


    I assumed Lego bricks didn't have a plasticizer because of the polybutadiene. Polybutadiene is an artificial rubber and has many of the characteristics that a plasticizer would have. I spent 3 and half hours searching for what additives Lego adds to it it's ABS. But couldn't find anything beyond the conform to government safety standards. So I'll stick by my original assumption unless you come up with anything to the contrary.
    LEGO posted a press release a couple years back saying their plasticizers have never been phthalates. They don't use much, but ABS without any plasticizer is too brittle to be used, it's like glass, it is very difficult to survive the molding process.

    So back to the discoloration, your step dad is absolutely right about white being very difficult to get right and keep consistent. I think it's a little hard to absolutely rule out UV exposure unless you've kept your figures in a sealed black container. Many households light sources are capable of putting out small amounts of UV. Also photochemical reactions can happen with lower energy visible light. However in this case I think oxidation is more likely cause. Given what I currently know about the flame retardants, I would say they are your most likely culprit.
    Some of these were stored in a lightless closet under lots of other stuff, UV exposure was limited to only time in factory and very brief time on shelf at the store, yet they yellowed. In my book, that rules out UV.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  4. #44
    Last night, I went to check out my Vintage Saga Collection Biker Scout and its torso parts were yellowed to hell, pretty much identical to my VOTC Stormtroopers.

    However, this time I looked inside the torso joint and even on the inside of the parts, where no light or dust or ANYTHING could have gotten to them, the parts had yellowed - that rules out any environmental factors except air. No UV, dust, or smoke exposure on this figure is possible.

    My best guess is that Hasbro's chinese factory vendor didn't mix their plastics properly for the torso parts, which are ABS while the rest of the figure seems to be PVC, and the dye or another additive broke down after an overly-short lifespan.

    Considering this is a collector-focused item and came with a premium pricetag, one would think they should have taken more care than the average cheapo throw-away toy sold to 6-year-olds.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  5. #45
    I just haven't looked at most of my stuff in likely a couple years. Therefore, not only haven't they yellowed, but they have IMPROVED their condition and value. :naive:

    Nice to know that they "really do care."
    'It is always nice to see you, says the Besalisk at the counter... And instead I pour blue milk...' From "Dex's Diner" by Su-San Vega

  6. #46
    They care about making disposable baby toys, basically. Who cares what happens 10 minutes after the little bastages rip open the package and lose the figure under the couch?
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO