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  1. #61
    "Front Runners" was pretty good, but something about it didn't click for me. I really liked how the city square was much more populated and visually interesting than these types of things once were on this show, and the fact that the rebels used their training from the last episode instead of just sort of ignoring those aspects (as sometimes has happened). I'll have to judge it as part of the four-episode whole, since in and of itself it wasn't too amazing. I am still interested in seeing how this arc plays out, so I guess it set up the next two relatively well.

    I'm not really sure why they played up the significance of Steela's "He's my brother" line. Apart from the ROTJ connection, uh, didn't we already know they were siblings? Was it supposed to show Ahsoka that Steela liked Lux, not Saw? It struck me as a bizarre way to end the episode.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkJedi5
    Also, the whole idea of Anakin creating insurgent groups that become the basis for the Rebel Alliance also seems like it's been done. Wasn't that supposed to be the big twist in The Force Unleashed, where Vader orders Starkiller to go undercover and infiltrate the fledgling Alliance to smoke out its leaders and then Starkiller goes rogue and essentially becomes a founding member of the Rebellion?
    Vader basically has Starkiller round up the Empire's most vocal dissidents and group them together to form the political side of the Rebel Alliance. As I recall - and I haven't played the game since it came out four years ago - Starkiller dies protecting them on the Death Star, and they use his family crest as the Rebel Alliance symbol (though a Jedi with a family crest always struck me as somewhat odd). The little red symbol on some of the Rebels' armor looks a bit like the symbol, so maybe they'll retcon that part. Aside from that, I don't see why this can't be seen as the start of the military side of the alliance, and TFU can be seen as the start of the political side.
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  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    (though a Jedi with a family crest always struck me as somewhat odd)
    Wasn't his father a Corellian Jedi? They'd established that Corellians often flouted the Council and got married (though that one novel sorta backtracked and made Neeja Halcyon a lying putz).

    So much backtracking on married Jedi. They really, really should've told people in advance about the "no attachments" thing... unless Lucas made it up while writing AOTC, which he did.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    Aside from that, I don't see why this can't be seen as the start of the military side of the alliance, and TFU can be seen as the start of the political side.
    I wasn't saying it wasn't feasible, just that the idea seemed a bit familiar.
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  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    Wasn't his father a Corellian Jedi? They'd established that Corellians often flouted the Council and got married (though that one novel sorta backtracked and made Neeja Halcyon a lying putz).

    So much backtracking on married Jedi. They really, really should've told people in advance about the "no attachments" thing... unless Lucas made it up while writing AOTC, which he did.
    Wookieepedia makes no mention of where Kento Marek is from, just that he and his lady friend left the Order and the war to live in peace, which is why he wasn't killed during Order 66.
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  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    Yeah, but that was when the Rebel Alliance had almost two decades to grow, and it's right after their "first victory against the evil Galactic Empire," and by that time it was a galaxy-wide rebellion against a galaxy-wide oppressor, not just a conflict on one planet. That was the Rebellion at its full power, or close to it, and this is the Rebellion at its very earliest stages.

    Or maybe they didn't have the budget to animate a lot of rebel soldiers, I don't know.
    I think the problem is really a lack of message. They are telling a story that they don't understand, they have the Jedi talking it down and then showing it being little more than the setup's expectations. We're never given a reason to care about the Onderonians or the planet itself, it's just another pawn in the war. As it is, it feels like the writers are doing catch-up learning on what's in the news about rebellions in the middle east and trying to make that palatable to kids, but they're just missing the bigger picture of having to give a care about the fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Battle Droid View Post
    Can't wait to see more of the new droid general in next weeks episode, he looks cool.

    I hope Hasbro makes a figure of him, even if it's realistic style.
    The old timey paint scrollwork seemed really over the top steampunk for me, but maybe they'll pull it off in full visual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    "Front Runners" was pretty good, but something about it didn't click for me. I really liked how the city square was much more populated and visually interesting than these types of things once were on this show, and the fact that the rebels used their training from the last episode instead of just sort of ignoring those aspects (as sometimes has happened). I'll have to judge it as part of the four-episode whole, since in and of itself it wasn't too amazing. I am still interested in seeing how this arc plays out, so I guess it set up the next two relatively well.

    I'm not really sure why they played up the significance of Steela's "He's my brother" line. Apart from the ROTJ connection, uh, didn't we already know they were siblings? Was it supposed to show Ahsoka that Steela liked Lux, not Saw? It struck me as a bizarre way to end the episode.
    I think the problem with Front Runners was that the rebels aren't fighting for the people or for anything worth showing, the people in the city are video game NPCs in the background reacting to what's happening and worth a single line about not honking them off from too much rebel terrorism. The rebels are self-interested and aren't coming off as anything more than smalltime, petty nobodies bickering over little nothings. The Jedi up and leave, taking at best some light remote interest, except for Padawan Tano who is clearly comprised by her feelings... and also she does NOTHING here. And then you have the entirely disconnected king and his prisoner and the aide, which felt like half a paragraph cut off mid-sentence at both ends.

    I didn't know Steela and Saw were sibs. You're right that the directing or line read on that "he's my brother" line fell way short of intentions, I didn't see the connection until you pointed it out. I think the idea is that it changes the romantic dynamic that Ahsoka thought she was dealing with.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkJedi5 View Post
    Isn't that basically one of the plot points in 1984, where the government is perpetually fighting a war for the sole purpose of creating fear amongst their own population in order to ensure they remain obedient? Not saying it's a bad idea, just saying it seems really familiar.
    Star Wars has always borrowed a lot, from the Kirosawa legacy to Joseph Campbell's heroe's journey. And you have the Zillo Beast (Godzilla), The Magnificent Seven (Embo, Seripas, etc.), plus Captain Jack Sparrow (Hondo Ohnaka in a way...), plus in ROTS, Padme says, "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause," when Palpatine is elected Emperor, a quote that could be attributed to John Kerry when the Republicans passed the Patriot Act under President Bush.

    Also, the whole idea of Anakin creating insurgent groups that become the basis for the Rebel Alliance also seems like it's been done. Wasn't that supposed to be the big twist in The Force Unleashed, where Vader orders Starkiller to go undercover and infiltrate the fledgling Alliance to smoke out its leaders and then Starkiller goes rogue and essentially becomes a founding member of the Rebellion.
    Well, it's Star Wars history and real world history. There was a CIA operative given stinger missiles to shoot down Soviet Union helicopters killing the Mujadeen in Afghanistan and another one armed with WMD's to fight the Iranians on his country's borders. Then the United States had to fight these guys (or the CIA was still their boss and there was a conspiracy to organize a fake fight against them to secure more favorable oil interests and maintain employment through the military and Middle East civilian contracts for campaign contributors. The actual names of the CIA operatives were Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and they were hired by the CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush.

    It's pretty easy to rename them Count Dooku and General Grievous, and have them engage "Darth Rumsfeld and Dick Vader."

    Science fiction is often a way to talk about the science-factual (real) world and recreate the state of the conflict in make-believe scenerios where hypothetical outcomes can be explored.

    Star TREK was designed to be all about that. It is a stretch to go so far with Star Wars, but the Prequel Trilogy is closer to the possibility with more politics in it than the OT which were intended to be more like teenage rebellion films for the action genre. A smaller proportion of the genre audiences was socially smart enough to appreciate Star Trek.
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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Tycho View Post
    Star Wars has always borrowed a lot, from the Kirosawa legacy to Joseph Campbell's heroe's journey. And you have the Zillo Beast (Godzilla), The Magnificent Seven (Embo, Seripas, etc.), plus Captain Jack Sparrow (Hondo Ohnaka in a way...), plus in ROTS, Padme says, "So this is how liberty dies? With thunderous applause," when Palpatine is elected Emperor, a quote that could be attributed to John Kerry when the Republicans passed the Patriot Act under President Bush.



    Well, it's Star Wars history and real world history. There was a CIA operative given stinger missiles to shoot down Soviet Union helicopters killing the Mujadeen in Afghanistan and another one armed with WMD's to fight the Iranians on his country's borders. Then the United States had to fight these guys (or the CIA was still their boss and there was a conspiracy to organize a fake fight against them to secure more favorable oil interests and maintain employment through the military and Middle East civilian contracts for campaign contributors. The actual names of the CIA operatives were Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein and they were hired by the CIA Director George Herbert Walker Bush.

    It's pretty easy to rename them Count Dooku and General Grievous, and have them engage "Darth Rumsfeld and Dick Vader."

    Science fiction is often a way to talk about the science-factual (real) world and recreate the state of the conflict in make-believe scenerios where hypothetical outcomes can be explored.

    Star TREK was designed to be all about that. It is a stretch to go so far with Star Wars, but the Prequel Trilogy is closer to the possibility with more politics in it than the OT which were intended to be more like teenage rebellion films for the action genre. A smaller proportion of the genre audiences was socially smart enough to appreciate Star Trek.
    Sure, Star Wars has always borrowed from other sources. Nearly every piece of fiction ever created does so either intentionally or unintentionally; there are only so many elements, themes, and components that can be used to tell a story. So far though, when the Clone Wars has done it, it has been done for the sake of paying homage (Zillo Beast, Bounty Hunters, and Cat and Mouse come to mind). My issue is when they try to retell a story Star Wars has already covered. Palpatine is already running both the Republic and Separatist war efforts to strengthen his own position. What's the point of starting up a third side? Okay, maybe he's thinking really long-term. But then why completely destroy the Separatists, why not let a faction of them hang around to be the boogie-man if that's what he needs? Or even just do as Tycho suggests and draw from the real world? Our government has used organized crime for the same purpose on several occasions and we know Star Wars has no shortage of organized crime.

    I suppose that's what I thought about the idea of having Anakin unknowingly start the Rebellion. We can divide the issue as JJL suggests into the political side of the movement and the military side of the movement but for me, the twist looses its punch since I thought I'd already seen it. Sure, there are lots of people out there watching CW who did not have any exposure to TFU and so for them, it's probably a great idea. It just doesn't have very much impact for me.

    Tycho's last point is undeniable; sci-fi has always been a place were story tellers can say things that would have been impossible if not for a thin veil of fantasy. However, I think the target audience is a critical factor for something like CW. Remember, this show is a ratings smash for that young audience and that's clearly where their bread and butter is. Sure, I've read all the articles citing how it's not just a kid's show but I think that when the plot lines get mired down in political intrigue it looses some of the fun. I think part of the success of the OT was that it was trying to be like a Saturday morning serial while the PT got bogged down in subterfuge.

    P.S. Tycho, if you haven't read the Blowback trilogy by Chalmers Johnson I believe it would be right up your alley. Essentially it tries to explain the repercussions the US' Cold War era policies have had on shaping the modern world.
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by DarkJedi5
    Palpatine is already running both the Republic and Separatist war efforts to strengthen his own position. What's the point of starting up a third side? Okay, maybe he's thinking really long-term. But then why completely destroy the Separatists, why not let a faction of them hang around to be the boogie-man if that's what he needs? Or even just do as Tycho suggests and draw from the real world? Our government has used organized crime for the same purpose on several occasions and we know Star Wars has no shortage of organized crime.
    Palpatine seems to have nothing to do with the Onderon conflict - that's strictly a Jedi mission, even though their goal is to fight the Separatists on two fronts, and the end of the Separatist movement is what the Republic (supposedly) wants. Palpatine's "third side" could be considered to be the criminal underworld, since when it flourishes, he wins no matter what - if the Jedi are dispatched to deal with the growing crime, then they could be killed in the conflicts or spread too thin for the war effort; if they are separated from it and remain in battle, which is his public goal for them as stated at the end of "Revival," then the crime causes unrest and it looks like the Republic and Jedi are too feeble or too unwilling to do anything about it, thus creating a public desire for a stronger government . . . perhaps like an Empire. Palpatine probably wouldn't even consider these "pitiful little band"s to be of any significance anyway, which is ultimately what brings down his Empire. I'm interested in seeing how he reacts to this - I sort of remember hearing him speak about Steela in a trailer, though I could be wrong.
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  9. #69
    Pleasantly surpised at this newest one; all the cliches I thought would come true, didn't really. I figured Ahsoka would've interfered, one of the main rebels killed, or the replacement king killed.
    "That's what Sheev said."

  10. #70
    The Star Wars Clone Wars cartoon was really good this morning. what the writers have essentually done is written the story of the Iranian Revolution from the Iranian point of view. the United States was in the wrong and deposed the traditional dictator for a another (the Shah) that was friendly to Western oil interests. the people revolted against the puppet secular leader in favor of a Muslim fundamentalist. the current movie Argo is about that.

    in Star Wars they just copied the situation and set the story on another planet but changed the point of view to that of the revolutionaries. kids see it as a Saturday morning cartoon and that's fun but I also enjoy a deeper level to all of this, and I know writers who were adults came up with the story line and had to have a source of inspiration for their idea. that's where the creativity came in. and lightsabers and laser guns make it a lot of fun!
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