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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    For those of you who follow the show, is there any truth to the rumor that Matt Damon is going to guest star as Ensign Frassk next season?
    They were going to put him in next season but the storyline got so huge that they had no choice but to sell Lucasfilm to Disney and let them make three movies about it instead.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    Clarification: when I said the darksaber was originally meant to be a vibro-blade but Lucas said it had to be changed, they changed the whole design not just the name.

    Not as obvious as you thought, I guess you haven't been vocal enough about it to create that seed in my mind. Plus, I wouldn't have thought it obvious since the entirety of the prequels... wait, I'll take your lead and not say it.


    Wow, as I said in the news comment thread, super defensive there.

    You are inferring motive that's not intended or implied, and your assumption of motives is especially off-base since the majority of the post was written yesterday in the early afternoon over on TV.com while waiting to get together with my sister for her birthday, long before I had read - or most of you had posted - the comments in this thread and the SSG news.

    I don't give a care what "the majority" thinks of the episode even a little nor do I want to change that, I'm confident in my assessment and stating that as such. The only thing that could be misconstrued otherwise is the thing I said to JabbaJohn when I asked if his cheerleading response of "best evah!" might have been slightly overstating things in HIS opinion when seen through the lens of time and compared to other top-tier episodes (of which I freely admitted that this could be included as one). Perhaps you might read it again without a chip on your shoulder.
    Same to ya buddy. Moving on...
    Last edited by Maerj2000; 02-04-2013 at 04:26 PM. Reason: A blinding, Christ-like love inspired me to.
    Good trader(s): TheDarthVader...thanks!

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    They were going to put him in next season but the storyline got so huge that they had no choice but to sell Lucasfilm to Disney and let them make three movies about it instead.
    This was not only well-played, good sir, it was best-played.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    I liked the Obi-Wan aspects, but I think it's mostly that the Sidious scenes were just so mind-blowing that they overpowered everything else. Obi-Wan didn't have much to do after Satine was killed other than to escape and try not to get killed himself, but he can still be instrumental in deciding the fate of Mandalore if/when he reports to the Republic. This episode was more about Obi-Wan's emotional state and him remaining calm and not focusing on his anger since he knows that's what Maul is really trying to do here.
    Obi-Wan was there to help both Satine and Mandalore, not just survive. With Satine dispatched, he still has taken on her cause, there was still a job to do and I felt like he really wasn't trying to do it. He didn't seem very Jedi here just surviving.


    In the commentary, Filoni said that Lucas wanted to start killing off some of the characters in this show who aren't in the films. We lost Pre Vizsla, Satine, and Savage in this arc, and yet now we have two characters whose fates we now don't know - Maul and Bo-Katan. So if they're trying to wind down, they're only making it more difficult for themselves.
    Really? That's kind of annoying to me, Lucas has always championed the idea of a world existing just off-camera, but I guess he meant ONLY WHEN HE MAKES IT UP HIMSELF.

    Maul I wouldn't mind not coming back, just being a medical experiment we never hear about again. I'd hate for them to try to tie into that Visionaries tale from here.

    This time, Maul was the one in charge - he didn't yet have this support or power in "Revival." So he was probably on a power trip and very pleased to see Obi-Wan in a dire situation. As Maul said in "Revenge" and reiterated here, he doesn't merely want to kill Obi-Wan - he wants to see him suffer as much as he suffered after getting defeated on Naboo. This was finally the perfect opportunity, or so Maul thought, to make Obi-Wan suffer.
    Look at Maul in the junkyard, that emotional instability I think should have come back out a little when finally capturing and confronting the guy who destroyed his life and took his legs, and defeated him and left him for dead yet again at the end of Revival. Snarl and lose it a bit, then regain his composure from his sense of command of the situation.

    Whoever fills in is going to have a lot to live up to. Sam Witwer does a pretty good evil Emperor in TFU, but I don't know how successful he would be as day-to-day politician Palpatine.
    Witwer is my choice, he was excellent as Palpatine in TFU and he's already working on the show as multiple characters. The only problem is that we've only heard him doing ROTJ-style Palpatine, not prequel Palpatine who isn't as manic and angry all the time. It's an unpleasant situation to find themselves in, the only really perfect answer would be to send audio crews to Ian McDiarmid every few months and I doubt he'd want to do that.

    The Encyclopedia on the official site says that Bo-Katan is Korkie's aunt, and gives "Kryze" as both of their last names, so you're probably right that Satine and Bo-Katan have a brother (unless last names are passed down maternally on Mandalore or something).
    There ya have it then, a brother it is, maybe he died a long time ago as well so as not to make his absence an issue.

    I understand what you're saying, as I posted shortly after my first (and so far only) viewing. That's probably part of it - and coming off the D-Squad arc probably helps bump it up in my mind as well.

    Just looking over the list of episodes for comparison's sake, here are three that stand out to me as my favorites from each season:
    Season One: Rookies, Trespass, Innocents of Ryloth
    Season Two: Landing at Point Rain, Bounty Hunters, Lethal Trackdown
    Season Three: Monster, Overlords, Wookiee Hunt
    Season Four: The General, Carnage of Krell, Bounty
    Season Five: A Necessary Bond, Shades of Reason, The Lawless

    Some episodes may have done certain aspects better, but I still think "The Lawless" is tops in terms of inventive, well-thought-out action set pieces (the action "Landing on Point Rain" was impressively huge but didn't do much beyond that), emotional moments (of which there are many big ones in the episodes I listed), animation (seriously, compare the facial movements and fluidity of action in this episode to anything from the first few seasons and the difference is stunning), and giving immensely satisfying payoff from storylines that started years ago, tying the series together to make it feel like a whole as opposed to a collection of random episodes, which is of increasing importance to me as the series continues. You're only focusing on the story, which is obviously important, but it's also important to note the technological advancements the show has made since it's continually pushing the envelope for TV animation and not being recognized for doing so. "Best" is subjective and my personal preference can change, but I can say for certain that this was the most thrilling viewing experience I've ever had watching this show.
    I tried not to consider the bump coming off of D-Squad, I try to pretend that arc wasn't largely a waste of time, but I do hear ya there, certainly that's going from a valley to a peak.

    Interesting list of favorites, very strong - and a lot of them are dour episodes, full of darkness and pain, I wonder if that's because that's what appeals to you, or that's where the showrunners put more of their efforts to deliver - so I'm not entirely sure if the rest of your argument is saying that The Lawless actually is better than those or just in their company.

    It's a reasonable list. I stand by Ambush, Zillo Beast, and Brain Invaders on my list, I'm always surprised that both Zillo and Brain Invaders don't get more love from the fanbase. Oh, and from this season, it's funny you went with Necessary Bond because for me A Test of Strength was the best of that part of season 5, just 2 episodes prior in the same arc.

    As for technical achievements, I'm not as concerened - what seems high tech today will be the next generation's laughingstock usually - so it just has to look convincing enough to me to pass muster. I was super impressed with the aforementioned "A Test of Strength" in terms of its animation and visual storytelling, but I have no idea if they were a technical leap or merely an artistic one because they looked good and told their story well. As long as the technology conveys the necessary information, I wouldn't care if it was wireframe or stick figures. The prequels are each a technological leap from one to the next in digital cinematic tools, but my favorite is TPM because its ability to express the Star Wars feeling comes through the loudest. Similarly, I've always said that ESB is my choice for the best SW film, but ANH is still my favorite.

    All that said, I doubt while you were watching it, that it was the technological nuances you're talking about that were "thrilling" in your viewing experience. The battle between Darth Sidious and the Maulio Brothers could have been told in season 1's technology mostly the same as it was here, wouldn't you agree?

    The "ties into the larger SW universe" thing is trickier for me partly because I really don't buy them bringing back Maul the way they did, or letting Obi-Wan feel so out of character and play such a limp dishrag of a part, or dispatching Savage without getting a big galactic impactful event under his belt, I also don't care a lick about this version of Mandalore, and there's essentially no connection to the actual clone wars here, so to me it was more of a singular story arc here rather than part of the movie universe. I see where you're coming from, I just don't have the same feeling.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    For those of you who follow the show, is there any truth to the rumor that Matt Damon is going to guest star as Ensign Frassk next season?
    200th post in this thread, ladies and gentlemen! Resources well-used. Matt Damon's head is shaped perfectly for a Cruisemissile Trooper helmet though.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  5. #205
    All posts are about Cruisemissile Troopers, even if we don't realize it at the time.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    Maul I wouldn't mind not coming back, just being a medical experiment we never hear about again. I'd hate for them to try to tie into that Visionaries tale from here.
    On the Google+ hangout, it sounded like Sam Witwer was aware of Maul's fate but might not have recorded more as him (that was my own interpretation of what was said). So they have a plan for him, it's just not clear when it's going to appear.

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    Interesting list of favorites, very strong - and a lot of them are dour episodes, full of darkness and pain, I wonder if that's because that's what appeals to you, or that's where the showrunners put more of their efforts to deliver - so I'm not entirely sure if the rest of your argument is saying that The Lawless actually is better than those or just in their company.

    It's a reasonable list. I stand by Ambush, Zillo Beast, and Brain Invaders on my list, I'm always surprised that both Zillo and Brain Invaders don't get more love from the fanbase. Oh, and from this season, it's funny you went with Necessary Bond because for me A Test of Strength was the best of that part of season 5, just 2 episodes prior in the same arc.
    It's not at all that I gravitate towards darker stuff, and I reject the modern thinking that everything has to be "gritty" to be good (see: Nolan, Christopher). I think the D-Squad episodes could have been fun if they were executed better, for instance, and I loved "Hunt for Ziro" for its incredible weirdness (the second half of Season Three was just so strong that I didn't include it on the list). I just think the show is at its best when it's tackling big questions, making bold character choices, and/or influencing the way we see elements of the films. I made the list just to show where my tastes are in regards to this show since I know everybody likes (or dislikes) different aspects of it.

    The Yoda scenes in "Ambush" are great, but the issues with the clones' humanity have since been done better in several episodes, and I really don't care for a lot of the stupid Battle Droid humor on display. "The Zillo Beast" is great, and "Brain Invaders" is good though I prefer "Legacy of Terror."

    I wavered between "A Necessary Bond" and "A Test of Strength" since either could have taken that spot. The Huyang stuff in "A Test of Strength" was fantastic, but the pirate crew was a little been-there-done-that in that episode.

    Looking back over the old episodes, I miss how different all the episodes used to feel one week to the next. Even when they did big arcs, like Season Two's Geonosis battle, the episodes could all feel radically different while still being part of a unified whole whereas now they can tend to blend together. On the flipside, the current approach makes the arcs feel like cohesive 88-minute stories when watched together. It would be nice to see smaller, one-or-two episode arcs again - the last standalone episode was Season Four's "A Friend in Need."

    On that note, just for comparison's sake (and since it's a slow day at work ), let's look at the different seasons (ignoring retcons for now):
    Season One: three 3-episode arcs, four 2-episode arcs, five standalone episodes
    Season Two: one 5-episode arc, three 3-episode arcs, two 2-episode arcs, four standalone episodes
    Season Three: four 3-episode arcs*, four 2-episode arcs, two standalone episodes
    Season Four: three 4-episode arcs, two 3-episode arcs, one 2-episode arc, 2 standalone episodes
    Season Five: five 4-episode arcs

    *Three episodes deal with the planning and repercussions of "Hostage Crisis" so I'm considering it an arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    As for technical achievements, I'm not as concerened - what seems high tech today will be the next generation's laughingstock usually - so it just has to look convincing enough to me to pass muster. I was super impressed with the aforementioned "A Test of Strength" in terms of its animation and visual storytelling, but I have no idea if they were a technical leap or merely an artistic one because they looked good and told their story well. As long as the technology conveys the necessary information, I wouldn't care if it was wireframe or stick figures. The prequels are each a technological leap from one to the next in digital cinematic tools, but my favorite is TPM because its ability to express the Star Wars feeling comes through the loudest. Similarly, I've always said that ESB is my choice for the best SW film, but ANH is still my favorite.

    All that said, I doubt while you were watching it, that it was the technological nuances you're talking about that were "thrilling" in your viewing experience. The battle between Darth Sidious and the Maulio Brothers could have been told in season 1's technology mostly the same as it was here, wouldn't you agree?
    I wholeheartedly disagree that the duel could have been done this well earlier on the show. It had been getting better, but up until Maul-vs.-Vizsla, a lot of the duels looked like the characters would go into a pose, pause for a split-second, pose, pause, repeat. They were really quite stiff for the most part. There are smaller things as well, like the vastly improved facial rigs so that characters can emote more realistically - particularly in Obi-Wan's case during the scene in which Satine dies. So it's not just the fact that the show is more technologically competent, it's that they're still pushing these innovations to help tell the story better and make the whole thing look significantly better overall. Seriously, rewatch some of the early stuff and it's crazy how much better it all is now - the video they put up to celebrate 100 episodes shows intercuts between all five seasons and the difference is clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    The "ties into the larger SW universe" thing is trickier for me partly because I really don't buy them bringing back Maul the way they did, or letting Obi-Wan feel so out of character and play such a limp dishrag of a part, or dispatching Savage without getting a big galactic impactful event under his belt, I also don't care a lick about this version of Mandalore, and there's essentially no connection to the actual clone wars here, so to me it was more of a singular story arc here rather than part of the movie universe. I see where you're coming from, I just don't have the same feeling.
    While I do feel that way, in my post I was referring to how the show itself is starting to feel like a more unified whole.

  7. #207
    When Obi Wan opened the blast door and the Battle of Mandalore was going on, the episode seemingly ceased to be a cartoon, and easily transformed into a movie to me. This episode had a ROTS feel to it with the great music, tragic turn of events, and Jedi incompetence.

    As good as this episode was, it was a giant middle finger to our intelligence. Satine and Savage both die due to a saber stab in a technologically advanced society where medical care could surely save them, yet Darth Marl gets slashed in half falls down a reactor shaft, ends up on a junk planet, yet survives with no advanced medical care. At the end of the episode, the lunacy that is Darth Maul, still rages on.

    I was honestly hoping that Sidieous would do what Lucas and the Clone Wars writers should have done, destroy Maul forever.
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    On the Google+ hangout, it sounded like Sam Witwer was aware of Maul's fate but might not have recorded more as him (that was my own interpretation of what was said). So they have a plan for him, it's just not clear when it's going to appear.
    How is the hangout? I got the press release about it last week and thought about hooking up G+ but figured it'd be a massive time-suck (I remember losing days to the Babylon 5 official chatroom back in the late '90s).

    I wonder why they'd tell Witwer what that fate was if he didn't record the lines. Anyway, I don't mind if they do something else so long as they believe in it, I just would prefer they not keep going back to the well here.

    It's not at all that I gravitate towards darker stuff, and I reject the modern thinking that everything has to be "gritty" to be good (see: Nolan, Christopher). I think the D-Squad episodes could have been fun if they were executed better, for instance, and I loved "Hunt for Ziro" for its incredible weirdness (the second half of Season Three was just so strong that I didn't include it on the list). I just think the show is at its best when it's tackling big questions, making bold character choices, and/or influencing the way we see elements of the films. I made the list just to show where my tastes are in regards to this show since I know everybody likes (or dislikes) different aspects of it.
    With that in mind, think The Clone Wars might get steamrolled in the "big questions" aspect once these new movies come around? I've never put so much stock into any particular non-movie source being the end-all be-all for canon issues, so I think that's probably why the "big answers" that come up from TCW don't weigh as heavily on my enjoyment of the show.

    The Yoda scenes in "Ambush" are great, but the issues with the clones' humanity have since been done better in several episodes, and I really don't care for a lot of the stupid Battle Droid humor on display. "The Zillo Beast" is great, and "Brain Invaders" is good though I prefer "Legacy of Terror."
    Yoda is really what sells Ambush for me, he's much more mischievous and impish and wizardly-wise there, that twinkle was what I liked, and his interactions with the clones gave them more value as people. Yeah, it's been done better later, but not as Star Warsy in my book.

    Legacy of Terror huh? That one seemed a little by-the-numbers zombie to me, while Brain Invaders was a little more inventive I thought.

    I wavered between "A Necessary Bond" and "A Test of Strength" since either could have taken that spot. The Huyang stuff in "A Test of Strength" was fantastic, but the pirate crew was a little been-there-done-that in that episode.
    Huyang definitely was the high point of that episode, but I felt like the kids weren't as annoying and the pirates really were more unique than previous episodes, more piratey than the usual TCW fare. Huyang was definitely some of that Star Wars sparkle though and that'll always sway me.

    Looking back over the old episodes, I miss how different all the episodes used to feel one week to the next. Even when they did big arcs, like Season Two's Geonosis battle, the episodes could all feel radically different while still being part of a unified whole whereas now they can tend to blend together. On the flipside, the current approach makes the arcs feel like cohesive 88-minute stories when watched together. It would be nice to see smaller, one-or-two episode arcs again - the last standalone episode was Season Four's "A Friend in Need."
    I don't think I like the arcs much anymore, these "big movies" make the audience invest a lot in something that may not work right to begin with and just keep dragging and dragging and dragging - D-squad is an obvious example of this. The variety was a draw to me as well and having to watch the same story for a month doesn't work as well.

    On that note, just for comparison's sake (and since it's a slow day at work ), let's look at the different seasons (ignoring retcons for now):
    Season One: three 3-episode arcs, four 2-episode arcs, five standalone episodes
    Season Two: one 5-episode arc, three 3-episode arcs, two 2-episode arcs, four standalone episodes
    Season Three: four 3-episode arcs*, four 2-episode arcs, two standalone episodes
    Season Four: three 4-episode arcs, two 3-episode arcs, one 2-episode arc, 2 standalone episodes
    Season Five: five 4-episode arcs

    *Three episodes deal with the planning and repercussions of "Hostage Crisis" so I'm considering it an arc.
    Good compiling. I feel like some of these arcs are either filler, or bloat from not being able to tell a story efficiently.

    I wholeheartedly disagree that the duel could have been done this well earlier on the show. It had been getting better, but up until Maul-vs.-Vizsla, a lot of the duels looked like the characters would go into a pose, pause for a split-second, pose, pause, repeat. They were really quite stiff for the most part. There are smaller things as well, like the vastly improved facial rigs so that characters can emote more realistically - particularly in Obi-Wan's case during the scene in which Satine dies. So it's not just the fact that the show is more technologically competent, it's that they're still pushing these innovations to help tell the story better and make the whole thing look significantly better overall. Seriously, rewatch some of the early stuff and it's crazy how much better it all is now - the video they put up to celebrate 100 episodes shows intercuts between all five seasons and the difference is clear.
    While I do see a lot of the heroes standing there deflecting blaster bolts, in the saber battles in that video I'm not seeing much of what you're talking about. Let's go back to season 1, Cloak of Darkness, Luminara and Ahsoka have a lot of saber battle action here against droids and against Ventress, it's pretty kinetic most of the time and exciting, not stiff. Yes, the faces are less nuanced, but it still conveys fine I think - it's a cartoon, after all, it's meant to look animated and stylized. There's no question that Ventress is angry, Ahsoka is cocky, Luminara is disappointed, and Argyus is crafty by the looks in their faces.

    While I do feel that way, in my post I was referring to how the show itself is starting to feel like a more unified whole.
    Not sure what you mean exactly, although I think I get ya. In watching that vid and some Cloak of Darkness clips to be sure I had the right episode, I do see that the cartoon has its own visual language that separates it from Star Wars movies though, and the storytelling style has its own pattern to match that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Metalmute View Post
    When Obi Wan opened the blast door and the Battle of Mandalore was going on, the episode seemingly ceased to be a cartoon, and easily transformed into a movie to me. This episode had a ROTS feel to it with the great music, tragic turn of events, and Jedi incompetence.

    As good as this episode was, it was a giant middle finger to our intelligence. Satine and Savage both die due to a saber stab in a technologically advanced society where medical care could surely save them, yet Darth Marl gets slashed in half falls down a reactor shaft, ends up on a junk planet, yet survives with no advanced medical care. At the end of the episode, the lunacy that is Darth Maul, still rages on.

    I was honestly hoping that Sidieous would do what Lucas and the Clone Wars writers should have done, destroy Maul forever.
    "Jedi incompetence," ouch, that doesn't speak well of the prequels' view of the Jedi.

    Satine and Savage die because they're run through and nobody is there to save them, so medical science can't save them. As for Savage vs Maul's injury, Savage was run through major organs - the lungs and possibly the heart - while Maul was severed at the waist below the major organs and the majority of his spine, so if we somehow assume he had a soft landing, it's not impossible that a master of the Dark Side could have kept himself alive compared to Savage (who barely has any Force training). Still, I can't give this show any credit for bringing Maul back, the idea that Maul actually could have survived being run through AND being dumped down a red-hot shaft AND somehow dropped at a junk planet is all just too much.

    I agree that Maul really needs to be done away with at this point, they've already stretched incredulity too far as it is.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  9. #209

  10. #210
    Oh wow, cool trailer! Apparently big things are going to happen. I like that they're finally dealing with the public opinion and perception of the Jedi.

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks
    How is the hangout? I got the press release about it last week and thought about hooking up G+ but figured it'd be a massive time-suck (I remember losing days to the Babylon 5 official chatroom back in the late '90s).
    The whole thing is online, and a little under an hour long. It's fun and they touch on some interesting topics, so if you're looking for something to fill an hour it's cool but not massively big in the way of reveals or anything. They did reveal Russo-ISC, the David Caruso CSI droid from this next arc who continually flips his sunglasses - er, goggles.

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