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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    It was very strongly hinted at in various EU books around the time of the NJO, particularly Rogue Planet. Palpatine chose that moment in history to take over the universe because he thought the Jedi would lead to the downfall of the entire galaxy. He later sent Thrawn out that way, because he saw the Vong as a bigger threat than the Jedi, who he could wipe out with a bunch of New Zealanders in colorful white armor. Palpy never comes out and says, "Hmmm, I think I will take over the galaxy now because these aliens from another galaxy are bad news," but it's definitely intended to be the case.
    It really got into it in Outbound Flight. While it was a good book, the whole good guy Palpatine thing was over the top.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    I remember that alien-bigotry explanation and I definitely never felt it to be satisfactory. As for Palpatine trying to prepare the galaxy for the Vong invasion, that's sounds like the plotline for Fable III, but the Star Wars version probably came first. Either way, trying to attach some sort of "noble" motive to Palpatine's actions completely undermines the storyline for all the movies. That's a horrible idea.
    The Thrawn trilogy said it was alien bigotry, however later books said he kept his top tactician out there to be on the look out for Vong forces.
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    The last 9 words of your post pretty much prove my point. Sure HTTE was extremely popular... for a Star Wars book. However, did it create a bunch of new Star Wars fans in 1991 or did it just reveal that the old Star Wars fans never really went away?
    It's now #1 in SW, re-overtaking The Last Jedi, I don't think this is about old fans trying to rebuy 1 book over and over, I think it still has good word of mouth, it is #25 AND #35 in Space Opera (hardcover then kindle edition, respectively) behind Ender's Game, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the John Carter on Mars series - it's in good company. Timothy Zahn is the #27 top author in Amazon's Author Rank system for Books > Sci-Fi, not just Space Opera or Star Wars, this isn't some old guard fans clinging to a single book or series, it resonates because it's good entertainment and has that Star Wars magic feel no matter when it was written. BTW, HTTE's 2 sequels are #s 3 and 4 in SW, while Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future (the sequels) are only #18 and #20 in SW, so it's not blind faith.

    Even though I never finished the series, there are enough cool elements in HTTE that I wouldn't mind seeing adapted into the ST. Plus I think Thrawn is a cool character at the design level, I just never really liked how he was written in the book. I can't help but think that, if the Emperor really had this tactical genius who always seemed to know exactly what the heroes were going to do and always had a contingency plan to stop them, then why wouldn't Palpatine have called upon his expertise at some point after the first Death Star exploded? It just feels too convenient for me. Kind of like, "Oh the Empire really did have this competent, unstoppable military force, but they were always just offscreen during the films."
    If you had finished the series, you'd see more cracks in his character. Also, I think having him disconnected from Vader is a big part of what makes him able to be a competent officer in the Imp Navy, no sweating getting choked out for a stray cough.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    I remember that alien-bigotry explanation and I definitely never felt it to be satisfactory.
    I liked the alien bigotry thing, it resonated with me, when you look at the OT there's no aliens in the Empire, they hire snitches but that's about the extent of it. Even Palpy's weird ROTJ advisers are humans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    Ugh. It's crap like this that makes me hate much of the EU. Well, at least anything to do with the Vong.
    Ditto here.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    If that really is the case, then I say burn the EU. Burn it all down to the ground.

    Anyway, here's an old quote from Lucas that kind of hints how the current post-ROTJ EU fits in with his vision (emphasis added):



    This quote comes from a Merge Digital interview dated 2006; but I found it referenced in this article which is pretty fascinating to read:
    http://www.secrethistoryofstarwars.c...eltrilogy.html

    So, what Lucas is basically saying is that, if he wrote a story for Luke, Han and Leia that takes place after ROTJ, then it wouldn't be at all like the current EU continuity. I'm not sure how relevant that is right now, but it's pretty interesting and might give a hint at how faithful they plan to be to the existing post-ROTJ storylines.
    In ANH's DVD commentary he attributes the saga to Leia, Vader, Luke, the Droids, Obi-Wan, the Jedi, the Sith. The amount of people he claims the movies are about is STUPID. And when you look at his notes and his writings for ANH and ESB, it's clear Vader wasn't who the saga was about at all, Anakin Skywalker wasn't even Vader for a while. I have no problem with him seeing the post-ROTJ era differently from the EU writers and wanting now to make that into movies, but I do have a problem claiming it's all about Vader, that's disingenuous to a severe degree.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    It's now #1 in SW, re-overtaking The Last Jedi, I don't think this is about old fans trying to rebuy 1 book over and over, I think it still has good word of mouth, it is #25 AND #35 in Space Opera (hardcover then kindle edition, respectively) behind Ender's Game, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, the John Carter on Mars series - it's in good company. Timothy Zahn is the #27 top author in Amazon's Author Rank system for Books > Sci-Fi, not just Space Opera or Star Wars, this isn't some old guard fans clinging to a single book or series, it resonates because it's good entertainment and has that Star Wars magic feel no matter when it was written. BTW, HTTE's 2 sequels are #s 3 and 4 in SW, while Spectre of the Past and Vision of the Future (the sequels) are only #18 and #20 in SW, so it's not blind faith.

    If you had finished the series, you'd see more cracks in his character. Also, I think having him disconnected from Vader is a big part of what makes him able to be a competent officer in the Imp Navy, no sweating getting choked out for a stray cough.

    I liked the alien bigotry thing, it resonated with me, when you look at the OT there's no aliens in the Empire, they hire snitches but that's about the extent of it. Even Palpy's weird ROTJ advisers are humans.
    Now you're making me think that I need to take the time to read the Thrawn trilogy.

    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    In ANH's DVD commentary he attributes the saga to Leia, Vader, Luke, the Droids, Obi-Wan, the Jedi, the Sith. The amount of people he claims the movies are about is STUPID. And when you look at his notes and his writings for ANH and ESB, it's clear Vader wasn't who the saga was about at all, Anakin Skywalker wasn't even Vader for a while. I have no problem with him seeing the post-ROTJ era differently from the EU writers and wanting now to make that into movies, but I do have a problem claiming it's all about Vader, that's disingenuous to a severe degree.
    Yeah, I kind of take it with a grain of salt, since Lucas changes his mind so much. And I definitely don't buy the claim the Star Wars has always been about Darth Vader. That was clearly not the case in the OT, he just ended up becoming such a powerful and iconic character (which almost had nothing to do with George Lucas whatsoever), that he kind of became a central character after the fact.

    Luke Skywalker was clearly the central character of the Star Wars universe when Lucas was writing ANH and ESB. So when he claims that the story has "always" been about Anakin/Vader, then I can't help but think that someone needs to take a fire extinguisher to George Lucas' pants because they must be on fire.
    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence… When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

  4. #164
    I kinda ignored it, to be honest. The appeal of Palpatine has always been that he has no redeeming features; to make him noble just doesn't fly.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  5. #165
    I agree. Palpatine is not noble. However, well-written characters are not black-and-white, 2 dimensional. Palpatine can do some good things.

    Taking EU into account, as we are here anyway, starting from Darth Plageuis:

    Palpatine had Force talents that he kept hidden. He feared his own angry misuse of them.

    He was a spoiled rich kid being raised on Naboo and his father became ensnared in political intrigue over corporate development contracts being sought my Damosk Holdings (Darth Plageuis' huge pharmaceuticals company's financing branch from Muun).

    Plagueis wanted to exploit the anger Palpatine had towards his disciplinarian father and manipulate his father at the same time, also named Palpatine - the family last name. Plageuis could then develop on Naboo and destroy their environment using their planet's core energy (eventually Kamino sufficed - but they were probably originally going to manufacture the clones on Naboo but the Sith thought better of it and hid them on Kamino. That could have worked, btw, because Naboo was going to need better defenses as the Sith were preparing the Trade Federation to invade at the same time, making the Republic look weak and in need of a standing army as it were - and as it eventually happened.).

    Anyway, the future Darth Sidious did not use his first name at all, because it was something his father (Cosigna Palpatine) gave him. He just went by Palpatine because fate had made him that way (of that family on Naboo).

    Plageuis discovered Palpatine was Force talented and trained him. Palpatine murdered his own family when he got angry he was being sent to a university away from Damosk (because his father didn't like Darth Plageuis - though he didn't know Damosk by that name).

    Palpatine's quest always became gaining power. He wanted control over everything.

    Since the Yuuzhan Vong posed of a threat - which he could have learned of from Darth Plageuis or on his own - after he was already a Sith Apprentice - he would not want the Vong and their "embrace of pain" crap controlling HIS life for sure.

    Thus, yes, he had weapons of mass destruction at his disposal to defeat the Vong which he learned were coming. But it was for PALPATINE alone that he would stop them as he did not want to live under their religion and he was convinced the Sith were more powerful than the Vong. The Jedi needed to be done away with anyway, but Palpatine did not do away with all Force-talented adepts - as evidenced by Galen Marek and Mara Jade just to name two.

    He was trying to raise Dark Jedi in the Clone Wars cartoon - the babies that the Kyber Crystal revealed which Cad Bane was hired to retrieve. Remember?
    BAD Pts Need: R5-C7 lf leg (x2), , R4-P44 right leg BAD Pts Offered For Trade: PM me - I have lots of parts now including BG-J38!. New Kyle Katarn is also available.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    Now you're making me think that I need to take the time to read the Thrawn trilogy.
    I don't want to oversell it, it's not the best thing ever, there are flaws and rough parts, but I think as a trilogy it was quite enjoyable and had a good sense of Star Wars magic and a decent finale for what was trying to be done. If you have the free time, it's worth checking out, it's a fine read on its own merits.

    Yeah, I kind of take it with a grain of salt, since Lucas changes his mind so much. And I definitely don't buy the claim the Star Wars has always been about Darth Vader. That was clearly not the case in the OT, he just ended up becoming such a powerful and iconic character (which almost had nothing to do with George Lucas whatsoever), that he kind of became a central character after the fact.

    Luke Skywalker was clearly the central character of the Star Wars universe when Lucas was writing ANH and ESB. So when he claims that the story has "always" been about Anakin/Vader, then I can't help but think that someone needs to take a fire extinguisher to George Lucas' pants because they must be on fire.
    Were they corduroy?

    Annnyway, that tasteless joke aside, I wonder if Lucas truly knows what he had in mind anymore, or maybe he is just winging it and saying these things to sound important.


    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    I kinda ignored it, to be honest. The appeal of Palpatine has always been that he has no redeeming features; to make him noble just doesn't fly.
    Wise, that whole tangent sounds really bad and just wrong-headed for a Sith.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post


    Wise, that whole tangent sounds really bad and just wrong-headed for a Sith.
    The Vong were a threat to Palpatine's power. He didn't plot to save the galaxy for its residents' sake. He did it for his own to hold on to power as the ranking Sith Lord.

    The KOTOR Jedi would try to appease the Vong and make peace with them. Luke's NJO responded a bit like the Sith would: complete genocidal anihilation. The difference? When the Vong's leadership was brought down, Luke let the civilians willing to assimilate settle down. Had Darth Sidious been in power: he would have ordered total extermination (to a degree - he did not entirely care about wiping out every Jedi in hiding - just the ones that caused trouble as they appeared - like some guy named Kenobi on his Death Star). Vader obsessed with hunting down the Jedi because he misplaced blame for Padme's death on the Jedi Order denying him and for their faults in methodology for fighting the Clone Wars - everything else he got mad about.

    To recap:

    Mace Windu with the Vong: "How do you feel about peace today?" ....."Embrace your pain!"

    Luke Skywalker with the Vong: "Now that your on your knees since we cut your feet off, I'll listen to you beg!" ...."Please spare me."

    Darth Sidious with the Vong: "Die!" .......the dead don't respond

    It illustrates how the NJO differs from the KOTOR, but is still significantly different from The Sith.
    BAD Pts Need: R5-C7 lf leg (x2), , R4-P44 right leg BAD Pts Offered For Trade: PM me - I have lots of parts now including BG-J38!. New Kyle Katarn is also available.

  8. #168
    I have the titles!

    Episode 7: a new flare

    Episode 8: the lens flares back

    Episode 9: return of the lens flare
    BAD Pts Need: R5-C7 lf leg (x2), , R4-P44 right leg BAD Pts Offered For Trade: PM me - I have lots of parts now including BG-J38!. New Kyle Katarn is also available.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    I don't want to oversell it, it's not the best thing ever, there are flaws and rough parts, but I think as a trilogy it was quite enjoyable and had a good sense of Star Wars magic and a decent finale for what was trying to be done. If you have the free time, it's worth checking out, it's a fine read on its own merits.
    I read a bunch of Star Wars novels when I was in Korea, but that was because I spent so much time on radio watch for hours and hours at a time with nothing to do. Now, when I pick up a Star Wars book I get 2 sentences in and then realize that there are about a million more productive things I can be doing with my time.

    I even bought some old Star Trek novels (at like 25¢ each on eBay) and I get about a chapter or two into those and I start to feel guilty that I'm wasting my time there as well.

    However, I've logged over 600 hours playing Skyrim on my XBox... go figure.

    So, unless Disney announces that Ep7 is going to be named "Heir to the Empire" then I doubt that I will ever really get around to reading those books.
    "To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence… When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S. Lewis

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    I read a bunch of Star Wars novels when I was in Korea, but that was because I spent so much time on radio watch for hours and hours at a time with nothing to do. Now, when I pick up a Star Wars book I get 2 sentences in and then realize that there are about a million more productive things I can be doing with my time.

    I even bought some old Star Trek novels (at like 25¢ each on eBay) and I get about a chapter or two into those and I start to feel guilty that I'm wasting my time there as well.

    However, I've logged over 600 hours playing Skyrim on my XBox... go figure.

    So, unless Disney announces that Ep7 is going to be named "Heir to the Empire" then I doubt that I will ever really get around to reading those books.
    I hear ya on the novels, it's easy to read when you've got to kill that much time, but when you have other stuff it's really hard to justify it. That said, reading is WAY more rewarding mentally than TV and video games because the reader is actively creating in their imagination the scenes they are reading about. For a long time I wasn't reading at all, then I got a hand-me-down e-reader and that... rekindled (sorry) my interest in books, so when I make time to read I find it more rewarding overall.

    Trek novels are tough, what era? I was buying a lot of used trek for a quarter at my local used book shop about a decade back and generally hating 1 out of 3, but enjoying just as many. Trek has a LOT of different voices, that's both good and bad.

    As for HTTE trilogy, I think you're ultimately going to be missing out a little, especially if Ep 7 sucks, because these books work on the Star Wars level where most others I've read don't.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

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