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  1. #1

    How did Palpatine secretly finance the Grand Army? That's stretching credulity

    I was thinking about this recently, in AOTC we see that "Sifo Dyas" has ordered a clone army from the Geonosians for the Republic. Lucas says on the ROTS DVD commentary that Sifo Dyas is Palpatine, which is fine. My problem is that, even as chancellor, how the hell did Palpatine funnel such a large amount of funds away from the Republic to pay for the clones, the creation of their armor and weapons, and the ships they were using?

    In our country, defense is 2/3s of a trillion dollars annually (although about 6% of that goes to retiree pay, which wouldn't affect a new military), that's 20% of our overall annual budget. If Palpatine siphoned off 20% of the Republic's budget, someone would likely have noticed, that's got to be a significant chunk of change. Even if Palps secretly used the credit card, that's so much credit that it'd show up in the system.

    And keep in mind that Palpatine's startup costs were over a period of a decade all in secret, including development of clone soldiers, design and fabrication of arms and equipment, the massive undertaking of creating a fleet of starships and support craft, plus training for all of it.

    Imagine if George Bush had siphoned off $6 trillion dollars over the course of a decade starting in '91 with no oversight or accountability or anything to show for it, don't you think someone would have said something? Of course they would have. I doubt any of us can even imagine what $6 trillion really would look like. And the Republic is thousands of times as big as the US.

    Are we really to expect that the cloners of Kamino are going to extend a massive line of credit to a random guy claiming to be a Jedi without batting an eyelid? AND they had to do so in silence, no less. What about the shipyards, what about the materials needed to build giant ships to haul the clones around? They all had to be paid for the decade of work they did, and paid quietly so as not to draw attention to their activities.

    So how does Chancellor Palpatine finance in secret this clone army? And how does this not faze someone, especially the Jedi who just accept this perfectly-timed thing created in their names?

    I don't think he can, I think that's a plot hole in the movie and in the prequels in general, but it's the kind of plot hole expected of Star Wars.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  2. #2
    Lucas should've communicated better with the guys doing EU. He's said it was "obvious" it was Palpatine; yet, there's now a full backstory for Sifo-Dyas, friend of Dooku, who ordered the clones.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  3. #3
    Lucas also said he had nine, even twelve, stories he planned to tell about the legal loophole that allowed Palpy to Siphon These-es that money off. And that Boba Fett was dead when that happened, not rescued from a pit. Originally, JarJar was going to be the source, but the bad publicity after TPM meant he had to re-write the script for AOTC (which was the reason it was late back in 2000).

    Yeah.
    "May the 4th be with you?" "Why yes, thank you for asking."

  4. #4
    Maybe it was a POD service? Sifo Dyas could have placed the delivery and stuck the republic with the bill. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a service up front that I wouldn't see and judge for ten years.

    Also, Palpatine was a force user, so I imagine he could have "forced" donations from higher class people. I'm sure over his life time he could have saved up a good portion of money by doing this. Plus, his master was probably doing the same thing.
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    Lucas should've communicated better with the guys doing EU. He's said it was "obvious" it was Palpatine; yet, there's now a full backstory for Sifo-Dyas, friend of Dooku, who ordered the clones.
    Yeah, I saw that while doing a little light research for the post. They've gone all bonkers with this character that Lucas felt was "obviously" Palpatine, and had even named "Sido-Dyas" originally before getting cutesy.

    Still, I'm going to stick with Palpatine is Sifo-Dyas because, A) it is George Lucas; and B) how the hell would anybody else be able to put up enough coin to do this? Count Dooku is supposed to be a rich count, but he's locally rich, not "own a bunch of star systems" rich.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bel-Cam Jos View Post
    Lucas also said he had nine, even twelve, stories he planned to tell about the legal loophole that allowed Palpy to Siphon These-es that money off. And that Boba Fett was dead when that happened, not rescued from a pit. Originally, JarJar was going to be the source, but the bad publicity after TPM meant he had to re-write the script for AOTC (which was the reason it was late back in 2000).

    Yeah.
    Heh heh, yeah, Lucas sucks and is a liar. And he's fat and has bad fashion sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Metalmute View Post
    Maybe it was a POD service? Sifo Dyas could have placed the delivery and stuck the republic with the bill. Personally, I wouldn't pay for a service up front that I wouldn't see and judge for ten years.

    Also, Palpatine was a force user, so I imagine he could have "forced" donations from higher class people. I'm sure over his life time he could have saved up a good portion of money by doing this. Plus, his master was probably doing the same thing.
    You know why we don't have payment on delivery options anymore? Nobody can afford to just up and build something and ship it out without resources in hand. The Kaminoans would be taking a massive risk if, after 10 years, the Republic coin hadn't come in and they had all that left over "inventory" laying around.

    Had Palps been swiping those funds from the rich folks he knew, the galactic accountants would have started noticing, and then Palps would be Force-suggesting them (and you know he has to believe there are galactic accountants because he came up with a galactic banking clan) and when Palps Force-suggests the accountants their wives are going to gossip and the IGRS (Intergalactic Revenue Service) is going to take note, and then the conspiracy is going to show up on the Jedi's radar because too many little leaks are out there.

    And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing.

    I think no one individual could believably have enough money to create an army and its entire support system from their own coffers, not even a Sith.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    I think no one individual could believably have enough money to create an army and its entire support system from their own coffers, not even a Sith.
    There's a serious, easy answer: the funds never existed, but the account shows they do. Palpatine would certainly support such subterfuge.
    "May the 4th be with you?" "Why yes, thank you for asking."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JediTricks View Post
    You know why we don't have payment on delivery options anymore? Nobody can afford to just up and build something and ship it out without resources in hand.
    Has it ever been said how much each solider costs? Lets say it's $10,000 an embryo. Then its $10,000 a year for food and clothing. The initial order was for 3,000,000 clones. That's roughly $3,000,000,000,000,000. Now throw in training. Training can probably be a unit sum, maybe $100,000 a year per 30 clones? That's an additional $10,000,000,000. That's 3 quadrillion credits. I seriously doubt Palps put down that kind of money up front with the chance that the clones could turn out like Corky from "Life Goes On". Now I can believe he had to put in a down payment for the troops, but I can't believe he paid the entire sum.

    The Kaminoans would be taking a massive risk if, after 10 years, the Republic coin hadn't come in and they had all that left over "inventory" laying around.
    I'm not sure it would be that massive of a risk. Remember, they are building an army. If the Republic reneges on the agreement, they don't have the firepower to fend off the Clone Army, let alone the Droid army. The Republic would be overthrown by the Kaminoans in months.

    Had Palps been swiping those funds from the rich folks he knew, the galactic accountants would have started noticing, and then Palps would be Force-suggesting them (and you know he has to believe there are galactic accountants because he came up with a galactic banking clan) and when Palps Force-suggests the accountants their wives are going to gossip and the IGRS (Intergalactic Revenue Service) is going to take note, and then the conspiracy is going to show up on the Jedi's radar because too many little leaks are out there.
    I didn't necessarily mean stealing it. He could have created a fake charity like the Human Fund, and forced people to pay into it. With a charity, no one would think fraud, and considering he ran the senate, no one would look into it.

    And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing.
    This is the biggest non-believable part of the whole deal. I can see a hidden army to some extent, but building a fleet of Star Destroyers, Turbo Tanks, Gunships, AT-TE's, etc... would be too much for anyone not to notice. The job creations at the ship yards and manufacturing facilities alone to take on such an order would be massive enough to make people start to question. Then, you know the grunts at the bottom wouldn't be able to keep a secret. Plus, I imagine this cost would be ten times greater than that of the armies.
    Nowhere in your incoherent ramblings did you come anywhere close to the answer. Thanks to you, everyone in this room is now stupider having heard you. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. -Billy Madison-

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bel-Cam Jos View Post
    There's a serious, easy answer: the funds never existed, but the account shows they do. Palpatine would certainly support such subterfuge.
    At this much coin, if the funds are fantasy money then the spending of those funds would deeply damage the Republic's actual economy. You float that much imaginary money into an economy and it destabilizes that economy's buying power. Even as credit, if the phantom accounts are on some bank's books it's essentially acting like counterfeit hard currency, a "phantom menace" if you will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Metalmute View Post
    Has it ever been said how much each solider costs? Lets say it's $10,000 an embryo. Then its $10,000 a year for food and clothing. The initial order was for 3,000,000 clones. That's roughly $3,000,000,000,000,000. Now throw in training. Training can probably be a unit sum, maybe $100,000 a year per 30 clones? That's an additional $10,000,000,000. That's 3 quadrillion credits. I seriously doubt Palps put down that kind of money up front with the chance that the clones could turn out like Corky from "Life Goes On". Now I can believe he had to put in a down payment for the troops, but I can't believe he paid the entire sum.
    Kamino seems like a sparsely-populated place, there might be more clones than Kaminoans, if Palps didn't pay at least a significant downpayment that almost certainly would have cost the system more than its entire value. The money to pay for all that stuff had to come from somewhere, even as credit has a true value to a galactic economy.

    I'm not sure it would be that massive of a risk. Remember, they are building an army. If the Republic reneges on the agreement, they don't have the firepower to fend off the Clone Army, let alone the Droid army. The Republic would be overthrown by the Kaminoans in months.
    Nobody else was big enough to buy that army though, and if I remember correctly no other system in the Republic could even HAVE an army that big, but that might just be EU nonsense.

    I like the idea of the Kaminoans overthrowing the Republic with their own unpaid-for merchandise.

    I didn't necessarily mean stealing it. He could have created a fake charity like the Human Fund, and forced people to pay into it. With a charity, no one would think fraud, and considering he ran the senate, no one would look into it.
    Maybe, but a decade of a charity that had more money than most star systems that had no oversight and no output would come up pretty suspiciously to the Intergalactic Revenue Service.

    And of course there still have to be the materials shipping into this project, they can't go on margin for a decade without someone noticing.
    This is the biggest non-believable part of the whole deal. I can see a hidden army to some extent, but building a fleet of Star Destroyers, Turbo Tanks, Gunships, AT-TE's, etc... would be too much for anyone not to notice. The job creations at the ship yards and manufacturing facilities alone to take on such an order would be massive enough to make people start to question. Then, you know the grunts at the bottom wouldn't be able to keep a secret. Plus, I imagine this cost would be ten times greater than that of the armies.
    Yeah, this one really is a massive stretch because you have to pay designers, you have to pay for materials, you have to pay people to build it, you have to pay people to work out the training that gets fed into the clones' brains, you have to pay some shmoe to stencil Republic logos on each one, each item has to have a name, someone has to develop the rockets that they fire (because some genius decided that the Gunships would carry hard ammo instead of just laser bolts, adding more annoying logic holes to the issue) and stick Republic logos on THOSE. Lots of leaks possible.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  9. #9
    To answer the original question:

    PORN. Lots and lots of Sith porn.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  10. #10
    Part of me wants to mention something about the Rule of Two, Chux, but decency says... wait; I guess I just did.

    I really think that Darth M.'s "forced" idea is the likely cause. "You WILL transfer funds to this account." "Uh, yeah. I will." Then that account goes to another, and another, in a Moebius circle of them, until the Kaminoans get paid. Makin' it rain! Figuratively, as it rains ALL. THE. TIME. HERE.
    "May the 4th be with you?" "Why yes, thank you for asking."

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