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  1. #11
    The attitudes toward Jedi in the OT really don't jive very well with the prequels and associated EU. Like you said, Tarkin talks about Jedi like they're backwards weirdos. Except for Vader (and, later, as we find out, Palpatine), the Empire constantly goes for bigger machines. There's no sign that anyone else in the Empire places any stock in the Force.

    Plus, you have plenty of guys like Han, who are "Force atheists." People simply don't seem to believe in the Force. Luke's never even heard of it. At all. Or a lightsaber.

    The only people who refer to the Force are Vader and Obi-Wan (who clearly use and put a lot of stock in it), Motti (who mockingly calls it Vader's "sorcerer ways" until he gets a demonstration), and Dodonna (who's older than dirt). IIRC, Leia doesn't even mention it.

    And there's obviously no one who Luke can talk with about the Force. At all. He picks up a few tricks on his own before he learns about Yoda, but not much. Certainly, if he'd had any exposure (or, heck, something like a training manual), he should be a little better at it after three years, especially if he can get so full-on Jedi by the end of ESB (after presumably a few weeks on Dagobah).

    So, it seems like the Jedi worked in obscurity, seen mostly as legends by people who didn't know of their deeds defending the Republic, who mostly were completely ignorant of the Force or saw it as an outdated belief system.

    And, now, we learn that, just a mere eighteen years before, the Jedi were essentially celebrities, and the Force was used openly and widely. According to several sources, Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi were, because of their exploits in the Clone Wars, two of the best-known individuals in the entire galaxy. Even Yoda was a household name. That's like saying that the American troops in the Gulf War were all 70-foot tall cyborgs who transformed into Porsches and guest-hosted Saturday Night Live, but no one believes that now.

    No one ever said to Luke growing up, "Hey, Skywalker--any relation to that hotshot pilot Jedi dude from the Clone Wars?" He must've told someone at some point about his training on Dagobah, even if it just Leia. Surely her dad would've mentioned the galaxy-famous leader of the Jedi, right? Hell, Yoda was friends with Chewbacca! And Luke was babbling about Yoda when Han found him on Hoth--did no one ever put two and two together? "Yoda? You mean a short dude, about yay high, like this he talks? I knew that guy!"

    The Empire's propaganda machine simply could not be that effective. Not after just eighteen years, with so clearly a limited reach on so many worlds.

    And, if there are so many non-Sith Dark Side users, why not simply replace the old Jedi Order with a new one, and make it look like nothing has changed?
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  2. #12
    Yeah, I think ROTJ muddied the waters a bit by turning Palpatine into a Force-user and then we later learn that he's an all-powerful Sith Lord. Prior to ROTJ, he was just a corrupt dictator with absolute power, but only in a political sense.

    Then Ep1 comes along and suddenly we learn that "Darth" is not Darth Vader's first name, it's actually a Sith title, lightsabers start igniting at the drop of a hat, Force-lightning here, Force-lightning there, arms chopped off, more lightsabers, heads chopped off, even more lightsabers, arms and legs chopped off, still not enough lightsabers so they added more, and it's all downhill from there.

    I think it's just Lucas and the writers making decisions based on what's popular and what sells merchandise, not what actually makes sense for the Star Wars universe. And they're definitely not interested in maintaining the integrity of what made Star Wars popular in the first place back in 1977.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. JabbaJohnL View Post
    Well, remember that Obi-Wan said Vader "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." He didn't say that Vader was alone, or even in charge. It's a big galaxy, and remember that Vader once recruited six bounty hunters to search for one little ship.
    That line always seemed to me like Vader was spearheading the actual EMPIRE doing these things, that the Empire was skilled enough and dangerous enough to pull off hunting down the Jedi without hiring a bunch of contractors. Vader only brings in the Bounty Hunters when his specific prey warrants it, he's not hunting down any ol' ship, he's after Han Solo's Millennium Falcon, which doesn't play by the same rules and is good at Imperial entanglements... and Vader only did this after spending years hunting down the Rebel Alliance (the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell was hired by Jabba).

    I want to see how The Inquisitor looks alongside other (non-trooper) characters since we still don't really have an idea of what the show will look like. He looks pretty cartoony, so I wonder how he will be portrayed in the show. He's also very visually similar to many previous SW characters - the red stripes make him look like The Son or Darth Bane, and lord knows how many bald gray Sith wannabes exist at this point. Though I do appreciate the fact that he's Utapaun since the species isn't depicted too often.
    He'll look like a clown.

    The main picture is pretty cartoonish, the secondary one they showed doesn't look quite as bad but still isn't easy to take seriously in a post-ROTS universe. And I don't really think of Pau'ans as very threatening, it seems like a politically correct representation of all the non-humans as big bads.

    I also thought of the Grievous saber. Leland Chee tweeted a memory about the toy the same day, and of course the show will include ships based on Kenner toys (as TCW featured doppelgängers for vintage figures), so I believe that was the intent.
    Ah, ok, that's fair I guess. Seems a little cash-grabby for an unpopular item that just left shelves, but if it's meant to just be a connection it's ok.



    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    This might be a nitpick, but does it bother anyone else a bit that the original trilogy presented it as if all the Jedi were wiped out except Obi-Wan and Yoda? Then you get a handful of guys in the EU who went underground, who usually had left the Order before the events of ROTS.

    And, now, since ROTS, we've gotten quite a few Jedi who are still around, chilling with the nascent rebellion. So what was the big deal about Luke? And why didn't he get any Jedi pointers at all from guys like Rahm Kota, Ferus Olin, and possibly Asohka Tano?
    At first it didn't bother me too much, it was just necessity for keeping the post-movies EU interesting. Then it became an attachment to characters so that the audience or author couldn't let go of that character, and that wasn't so good. Then the prequels came along and said that these Jedi have all these amazing superpowers that they weren't hinting at in the OT, but the majority are all crapbags who couldn't get out of a jaywalking ticket so they aren't really worth keeping around anyway, so survive or not they wouldn't have been a threat to the Empire anyway. So yeah, it's not a nitpick, it's a real thing, and it does now bother me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Droid View Post
    It bothers me a lot, not just a bit. I can't stand the EU because everything is lost Jedi, more Sith, more dark Force users who are for some reason not considered Sith, Clone Emperors, cyborg Maul, etc., etc. I would find a story about the early days of the Rebellion, where they fought evil without the Jedi to help very interesting. I also would found a story about Vader hunting down the last Jedi interesting. A story about Jedi mucking around in the early Rebellion and someone other than Vader carrying around a red lightsaber and hunting Jedi drives me crazy.

    None of the fan base made up this "only two" Sith thing. Lucas decided that was a good idea. It would have been totally fine to have a whole group of Sith in the prequels. But they laid out that rule and then have done everything they can to ignore it.
    Yup, right on the money.


    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    When you watch ANH by itself, you tend to get the impression that the Empire looks down upon Jedi and Force-users as an archaic and obsolete way of thinking. Their "fire had gone out" and Darth Vader was "all that was left of their religion." So, men like Grand Moff Tarkin seemed to look at the Force as a quaint but outdated worldview that had no relevance whatsoever to the "modern" world. The Empire was superior to everything that had come before and there was really no room for mystics and prophecies in this new world order. Vader was somebody that Tarkin tolerated, but he really had no respect for some black-robed "wizard" wandering around the halls of his Death Star.

    Now I'm worried that we're going to be seeing the Empire filled with Force-users and a red lightsaber around every other corner.
    To me, ANH's blase' attitude about the Jedi is what described the characters: they were not supermen exactly, they had a few powers and special abilities, but it was WHO they were that made them what they were, and most folks didn't really see it, they thought of them only as tarot readers with lightsabers. And the Sith were even worse because, again, who they were made them more dangerous than what little special things they could do.

    The prequels have made them all supermen but at a cost of the "who" part of the equation.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Chuxter View Post
    The attitudes toward Jedi in the OT really don't jive very well with the prequels and associated EU. Like you said, Tarkin talks about Jedi like they're backwards weirdos. Except for Vader (and, later, as we find out, Palpatine), the Empire constantly goes for bigger machines. There's no sign that anyone else in the Empire places any stock in the Force.

    Plus, you have plenty of guys like Han, who are "Force atheists." People simply don't seem to believe in the Force. Luke's never even heard of it. At all. Or a lightsaber.

    The only people who refer to the Force are Vader and Obi-Wan (who clearly use and put a lot of stock in it), Motti (who mockingly calls it Vader's "sorcerer ways" until he gets a demonstration), and Dodonna (who's older than dirt). IIRC, Leia doesn't even mention it.

    And there's obviously no one who Luke can talk with about the Force. At all. He picks up a few tricks on his own before he learns about Yoda, but not much. Certainly, if he'd had any exposure (or, heck, something like a training manual), he should be a little better at it after three years, especially if he can get so full-on Jedi by the end of ESB (after presumably a few weeks on Dagobah).

    So, it seems like the Jedi worked in obscurity, seen mostly as legends by people who didn't know of their deeds defending the Republic, who mostly were completely ignorant of the Force or saw it as an outdated belief system.

    And, now, we learn that, just a mere eighteen years before, the Jedi were essentially celebrities, and the Force was used openly and widely. According to several sources, Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi were, because of their exploits in the Clone Wars, two of the best-known individuals in the entire galaxy. Even Yoda was a household name. That's like saying that the American troops in the Gulf War were all 70-foot tall cyborgs who transformed into Porsches and guest-hosted Saturday Night Live, but no one believes that now.

    No one ever said to Luke growing up, "Hey, Skywalker--any relation to that hotshot pilot Jedi dude from the Clone Wars?" He must've told someone at some point about his training on Dagobah, even if it just Leia. Surely her dad would've mentioned the galaxy-famous leader of the Jedi, right? Hell, Yoda was friends with Chewbacca! And Luke was babbling about Yoda when Han found him on Hoth--did no one ever put two and two together? "Yoda? You mean a short dude, about yay high, like this he talks? I knew that guy!"

    The Empire's propaganda machine simply could not be that effective. Not after just eighteen years, with so clearly a limited reach on so many worlds.

    And, if there are so many non-Sith Dark Side users, why not simply replace the old Jedi Order with a new one, and make it look like nothing has changed?
    Very good points all around.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbarada View Post
    Yeah, I think ROTJ muddied the waters a bit by turning Palpatine into a Force-user and then we later learn that he's an all-powerful Sith Lord. Prior to ROTJ, he was just a corrupt dictator with absolute power, but only in a political sense.

    Then Ep1 comes along and suddenly we learn that "Darth" is not Darth Vader's first name, it's actually a Sith title, lightsabers start igniting at the drop of a hat, Force-lightning here, Force-lightning there, arms chopped off, more lightsabers, heads chopped off, even more lightsabers, arms and legs chopped off, still not enough lightsabers so they added more, and it's all downhill from there.

    I think it's just Lucas and the writers making decisions based on what's popular and what sells merchandise, not what actually makes sense for the Star Wars universe. And they're definitely not interested in maintaining the integrity of what made Star Wars popular in the first place back in 1977.
    I think that's callous as to the why, Lucas had a lot of terrible ideas he was attached to in the first drafts with no regard to popularity or sales.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "We named the dog 'Chewbacca'!"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

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