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  1. #11
    As someone who believes in God and The Bible, but not in any organized religion, I must agree with Emperor Jargo. Religion is a way of exploiting the weak and keeping the masses ignorant.

    Qui-Gonn used the midichlorian theory to manipulate Anakin, and to eventually get his way. He believed in the prophecy of the "Chosen One" so strongly that he put everything on the line, including other people's possessions (the Queen's Starship) and the fate of an entire planet (Naboo). Decisions he had no right to take upon himself.

    Hopefully, Ep2 and 3 will shed some more light onto the whole midichlorian thing, I'd still like to believe that GL didn't just throw them in there to resolve a minor plot point. So FOR NOW I'm giving GL the benefit of the doubt. If after watching Ep3 he hasn't come up with a reasonable solution then I will be happy to join in the midichlorian-hate-debate.

  2. #12
    All I can say to these posts, is WOW!
    Last edited by Obi-Don; 08-29-2001 at 08:40 AM.
    "I have a bad feeling about this".

    "Just when I remembered what it was,I forgot where I put it."

  3. #13
    Originally posted by bigbarada
    As someone who believes in God and The Bible, but not in any organized religion,
    Not to get into this too much, but the Bible is the basis for more than one organized religion. Several sections of it conflict with one another and the organized religions that subscribe to its canon's conflict themselves.

    There are many portions of the Bible which closely resemble other religious literary works, such as the Koran.

    To believe in the Bible and not believe in any organized religion is kind of like believing in the McDonald's menu board but not believing that there is a building standing there.

    But this is sooo far off track. I apologize. I've been reading Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth.

  4. #14
    I also share Obi-Don's sentiments, I commend everyone on there well thought out posts!
    The one thing I wanted to point out was stillakids' point about Luke! I agree, and feel that Luke's triumph should reflect an individuals courage and ability to overcome any obstacle, however, I still think that will hold true even with the introduction of the midichlorians! Because, Luke's individual effort was mainly encompassed in ANH, after that it became something more, more of a spiritual journey, along with a greater strength found within the Love of family and friends! Hence, ROTJ ending with the song singing: 'Celebrate the love' So once Luke's journey takes on more of the spiritual sense, he is been aided by other "forces" (excuse the pun) and this is where Midichorians could be fit in, despite Yoda's "appearent" need not to tell Luke about them!
    Remember, QuiGon states,"We form a symbiant relationship with them...Life forms living together for mutual advantage". Well, if we want to get technical about it, there's plenty of organisms that live inside us that protect us from all sorts of things, mainly disease and viruses, and with out them we would cease to exist, so maybe midichorians could be thought of just as irrelevant as other organisms we take for granted. Yet, QuiGon felt a need to tell Anakin, where Yoda did not. On that note remember that it is shown that Qui-Gon, does seem to focus one aspect of the force(The Living), and he has been shown at odds with the council about a great many things! Maybe both sides are right in what they preach it's just that more Jedi tend to follow a certain ideal, or way of thinking over another!

  5. #15
    Oh, stillakid, I forgot to mention, It's good to see that you're brushing up on your Joseph Campbell. As I think I've mentioned before in other threads, here are some other good reads into the philosophical, metaphysical, and theological ideologies: 'Black Elk Speaks', by John Heibhardt(I think I spelled that right). 'The Celestine Prophesy' & 'The Tenth Insight' by James Redfield. The Babylonian text, 'The Epic of Gigamesh' my version is translated by an Andrew George. Also, 'Cyborgs @ Cyberspace' by David Hakken, which brings all these wonderful sociolgical, and anthropological ideas and meanings into the computer revolution and beyond! As boring and studious as those might sound, some of those are fun and pretty cool adventure stories!

  6. #16
    Originally posted by The 'Xir
    Top 5 points to remember

    1. They are not the Force!

    2. They don't literally speak to the Jedi.

    3. They are just a Tool to help potential Force users focus, or tune into, the Force.

    4. If they did not exist, it doesn't mean the Force would cease to exist, just that sentient life forms could not tap into the Force.

    5. They don't destroy the mysticism of the Force, they just allow Force users to better control the Force![/B]
    Based on this... Midichlorians are like little Force magnifying glasses???
    OK... I BLOG. YOU READ. at http://jedipartner1967.livejournal.com
    **Steven Sterlekar (1969-2001)**

  7. #17
    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll take a look.

  8. #18
    [/B]quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by The 'Xir
    Top 5 points to remember

    1. They are not the Force!

    2. They don't literally speak to the Jedi.

    3. They are just a Tool to help potential Force users focus, or tune into, the Force.

    4. If they did not exist, it doesn't mean the Force would cease to exist, just that sentient life forms could not tap into the Force.

    5. They don't destroy the mysticism of the Force, they just allow Force users to better control the Force![/B]
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    That's all well and good, but I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that Midichlorians should be a part of the Star Wars Universe in the first place.

    A) They were not mentioned previous to TPM, ever, and definitely break the established continuity.

    B) Using TPM to justify their existence is not allowed, as it would be like defining a word with itself.

    C) Any attempt at explanation and justification of their 11th hour introduction into the series can be nothing more than the shoehorning in of a necessary rationalization to make it all "work out" somehow.
    Last edited by stillakid; 08-29-2001 at 01:08 PM.

  9. #19
    Stillakid, I must disagree with your sentiment on the Bible and religion. I'll make this brief, but people using the Bible to further their own ends and fill their own pocket book; that's religion. Which is totally different from just following the Bible's doctrine. Having grown up with a Baptist preacher for a dad, I've seen how corrupt many churches really are.

    Anyways, I tend to stick to the idea that the midichlorians are just a theory, similar to any theory we have in our world. Many believe in one interpretation of the data, and many dismiss those beliefs and form their own opinions. Yoda has been around a lot longer than the rest of the Council, thus he's much more experienced in the ways of the Force, suddenly this idea of the Force being channeled through these little microscopic beings comes along and soon many people consider it fact. So you can see how Yoda would be a litle skeptical.

  10. #20
    Originally posted by bigbarada
    Stillakid, I must disagree with your sentiment on the Bible and religion. I'll make this brief, but people using the Bible to further their own ends and fill their own pocket book; that's religion. Which is totally different from just following the Bible's doctrine. Having grown up with a Baptist preacher for a dad, I've seen how corrupt many churches really are.

    Anyways, I tend to stick to the idea that the midichlorians are just a theory, similar to any theory we have in our world. Many believe in one interpretation of the data, and many dismiss those beliefs and form their own opinions. Yoda has been around a lot longer than the rest of the Council, thus he's much more experienced in the ways of the Force, suddenly this idea of the Force being channeled through these little microscopic beings comes along and soon many people consider it fact. So you can see how Yoda would be a litle skeptical.

    I'm not exactly where this idea of Midis just being a theory came in. It's certainly not in the film. They have a little Midi counter (conveniently placed on the ship I might add) that they use to, well, use to count the little buggers. Where's the "theory" in that? Yoda never expressed any doubt whatsoever in the existence of them. He only expressed doubt that Anakin might be the "chosen one." Yoda's Midi count was even a part of public record.

    I think that the definition of religion here on this planet will eternally be mired by symantics. While it is true that there are individuals who use(d) religion to control and manipulate, that idea has little to do with one's belief system and the documents they use to back it up. The Bible as well as other religious texts are most definitely works created and used solely for the use by organized religious institutions. Saying that you follow the doctrines that have been put forth by the Bible is different than saying that you believe in the Bible. To "believe" in it connotes a belief in the specific institutions that helped to create it in the first place. For instance, you might enjoy the family related doctrines of the Mormon Church but choose to disregard the rest of the theology. Does that make you Mormon? No and the elders wouldn't be interested in having you around either. The same goes for the Catholic Church, though they have recently tried to be more accepting of members who question authority. Thankfully we don't live in other countries where religious belief is so integrated into the government that people are routinely killed for having the wrong haircut.

    Anyway, organized religion, like any other large institution, is susceptible to becoming corrupt. "Religion," on the other hand, is what you make of it. The ideals you strive for, the doctrines you follow, the answers you're looking for and where you choose to find them all go together to make up your "religion." Our world has pre-built religion "kits" that you can join. Be Hindu, Catholic, or Jew. You choose and the institution will tell you what you are supposed to believe. How convenient! Despite the apparent differences, they all have commonalities that seem to point to one unifying source. It is in those differences that so-called leaders find ways to exploit and control oft-times unwitting followers.

    The Jedi (back to Star Wars. Whew!), as the films show us, are the only religion in town and clearly, not many inhabitants are signing up as if they could. The Jedi Council dictates who is to be "trained." If it weren't for a little nepotism, Luke would still be a farmboy. Anakin was "blessed" with a high Midichlorian count which gave him the advantage, but the Jedi Council, out of fear, wanted nothing to do with him. That's classic behavior from organized religion. Control the population or they will lose power. Presumably, that's what we'll see in EP II and III.

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