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  1. #1

    What's the Deal with...

    This whole 'Living Force' ideology! I've mentioned it a few times in some posts, and It's been comming up alot in threads across these forums! So who thinks they know where Lucas is going with this thing? We know there's the Force, it has a light side and a dark side, so what IS the 'Living Force' or the Living Side? Before we just knew black and white! Now there's this new aspect, could this lead to the idea of Grey Jedi? For everything has a ying and a yang! Will we learn of the 'Dying side of the Force' or the 'Dying Force'? Theories? Ideas? General babble?...

  2. #2
    I honestly can't explain it, my only theory that works WITH Lucas is that he's trying to show Qui-Gon as an outsider with views that don't match those of the other Jedi. However, my feelings are that Lucas simply lost his vision of what the Force was all about and is trying to make Ep 1 stand out from the other films (which might make sense if he were making Ep 7, but here just confuses things and feels sloppy and forced, pun not intended).
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  3. #3

    Post

    I don't think it changes anything 'Xir. Think of it as two ways to say the same thing. Life creates it. It is "the living force", or "the force" for short.
    ubi mel ibi apes

  4. #4
    Allie Fox had a great analogy in the old forums about the "living" force and the "greater force" and hpw they related to the light side and the dark side and how midichlorians fit into it. It was about a seeing eye dog...


    Update: it was in Movies-->Classic Trilogy-->What is the force? A theory. But alas, the first two posts are gone and it was one of them. Maybe Allie will be kind enough to revisit that theory here...
    Last edited by Rollo Tomassi; 08-31-2001 at 02:12 PM.

  5. #5
    Huh, I wonder why the system zeroed-out that post. Guess it was a good thing we put this new one into place when we did.

    Anyway, here's Allie's theory on the Living Force, which is different from the regular Force:

    Originally Posted by Allie Fox...
    [font=arial]I think that everyone is well aware by now that the midi-chlorians are NOT the Force. They are simply the connection between the Force and its user. This does not mean that the midi-chlorians have no effect on the Force user. I think that the relationship between the user and the Force depends more upon the user than on the midi- chlorians. Of course that is only speculation.

    There seems to be some debate about the relationship of the Force to its user. Allow me to elaborate...

    Qui Gon stated that the midi-chlorians constantly tell a user, "...the will of the Force." He chastised Obi Wan for concentrating too much on the future and not the, "here and now." He also advised Anakin to, "Use your instincts. Feel. Don't think." These quotes directly point to Qui Gon's belief that the user is the vessel of the Force and it completely control one's actions.

    Yoda and Obi Wan, on the other hand, seem to have thought differently. As I mentioned Obi Wan was chastised by Qui Gon for concentrating on the future; this is something he was apparently taught by Yoda sometime before or after being paired with Qui Gon. When Luke asked Obi Wan if the Force controlled your actions, Obi Wan told him, "Partially but it also obeys your command." Yoda constantly told Luke that he, "...must learn control."

    Think of the Force as a seeing-eye dog. Imagine that the Jedi are blind people that are privileged to have a dog in their possession. The midi-chlorians would be a very sensitive leash connecting the dog to the blind person. The way that Qui Gon uses his dog is to rely on it to guide him and he does everything that the dog makes him do. If the dog stops, he stops. If the dog turns to the right, so does he. He relies on the dog's actions to guide him and does not "think" about whether or not the dog might be right.

    From what we have seen of Yoda and Obi Wan's teachings; the blind person can sense the changes in the dogs movements and then adjust accordingly. If the person doesn't "think" he should make the changes that the dog suggests, he can make the dog do what he feels is right. Obi Wan told Luke, “You must do what you feel is right.”

    What I think is interesting about this theory (although far fetched and perhaps a little too thought out) is that it breaks the Force into TWO schools of thought. George Lucas has elaborated on this by claiming that the Force was divided in two parts, the Living Force and the greater, Cosmic Force. What TWO might indicate is that ONE side might not be "in balance." We debate over how Anakin will "bring balance" by crossing over to the Dark Side. What if the balance is not between good and evil but rather between the Living Force and the Cosmic Force.

    Consider again the seeing-eye dog analogy. If the blind person allows the dog to do all

    of the work then he really becomes open to influence from the universe around him. Remember what the Force is, "An energy field created by ALL living things." But if the blind person takes full control of the dog then he might end up walking into a busy intersection. The use of the dog needs to be BALANCED with the dog in control partially but also obeying the command of the blind person.

    Obi Wan is a new Master. Anakin's training will certainly be watched closely by those on the Council and within the Jedi Order. If Yoda and Obi Wan are as close as they appear to be in the original films, then they must have been close during Anakin's training. I have believed that Yoda will have a larger role in Anakin's training by "overseeing" Obi Wan's training of the boy. As Yoda and Obi Wan are of the Cosmic Force school of thought, they will undoubtedly train him that way. If Anakin disagrees with this school of thought (perhaps because of the seed planted by Qui Gon when he was an impressionable young child) he might seek solace with those that belong to Qui Gon's Living Force school of thought. This could be Count Dooku or whomever. Anakin might become disenchanted and become susceptible to influence by Darth Sidious. Once he turns to the Dark Side and the "Jedi Purge" begins, the Jedi Order might then re-think their teachings and align themselves in between the Living Force and Cosmic Force ideals. THIS would bring balance to the Force and it wouldn't matter if one was good or evil. The Force is the Force. It does not have a good side and a bad side. It is only what the person who uses it makes it to be. Darth Sidious knew this. Anakin may have followed the Living Force and allowed himself to be controlled by the Sidious because he thought he was doing the "will of the Force" when in fact it was Sidious controlling him. If we remember what Vader told Luke on the Sanctuary Moon, “You don’t know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my Master,” then we can see where he might have been under the influence of an outside source, i.e., The Emperor. In the end, he realized that a Jedi CAN control the Force and broke free from the Emperor's influence and became good again.

    George Lucas' specific quote was, “The Force itself breaks into two sides: the Living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, et cetera. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not.”

    In this quote Mr. Lucas makes no mention of either light or dark, good or evil. He also doesn't say that each side consists of two parts. The "Living Force" he describes is much as I have described it above. It makes you more of a vessel of the Force and its actions. The reason you would be able to read other people's minds and be more sensitive to other living things is because THEY are what the Force is made of. He states that the Greater Force has to do with destiny and choosing to follow your fate in life. Like the seeing-eye dog analogy, you are able to make your own decision.

    The more I think about it the less I believe that there is a Dark Side and a Light Side. The Force is the Force. If a Jedi becomes too influenced by either one of its "sides" as described by George Lucas, they might be opened up to either POSITIVE or NEGATIVE influence from the outside. This POSITIVE or NEGATIVE influence will cause them to be either good or evil. This is where you would get the "grey" Jedi that Qui Gon was described as. A purely "Living Force" follower would be easily controlled by anything they feel is an "outside" influence. Qui Gon was a "Living Force" follower that allowed outside influences to control most of his own actions. He allows the dog to go where it wants and he follows. Simply because a seeing-eye dog is well trained does not mean that it could not accidentally walk into a busy intersection. This does not mean a "Greater Force" follower could not be led astray. If the dog is telling you not to walk into traffic you still "control" it enough to make it walk into that same traffic.

    A dedicated follower to either teaching might be more susceptible to using the Force for other than noble purposes because HE is either the one controlling everything or open to being controlled by others. For this reason there needs to be a "meeting in the middle," a balance.

    When Anakin throws Palpatine over the edge into the abyss, he realizes the truth: One must BALANCE himself between the Living and Greater Force.[/font]


    That's not to say I agree with Allie on this one, I'm just reposting his theory since it was lost on the old system.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  6. #6
    Thanks JT!

  7. #7
    Yeah, WOW! ThanX JT and especially Allie!!! That's a gem! It may not be true, but it's one hell of a well thought out theory!

  8. #8
    The question now is whether Qui-Gon's belief in the "Living Force" and the importance he places upon it are the reasons he was able to survive as a ghost and teach other Jedi to do the same.
    Tommy, close your eyes.

  9. #9
    Hey look, a WOTC book has once again meddled in things above its pay grade and created official EU explanations of this junk:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Living_Force
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Unifying_Force

    That's a damned cute image of CW Yoda though.
    Darth Vader is becoming the Mickey Mouse of Star Wars.

    "In Brooklyn, a castle, is where dwell I"
    The use of a lightsaber does not make one a Jedi, it is the ability to not use it.

  10. #10
    yes JT, quite adorable!

    Awesome, I didn't know Ben appeared on Mustafar:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:...obi_SWGTCG.jpg

    And I surely didn't know that Skeletor made a stop in the Mortal Kombat universe before his Star Wars crossover appearance:
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/File:...pirit-JATM.jpg

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