What's the deal with ROJ?? (merged thread)

[Jon]

For a long time Return of the Jedi was my favorite of the 3 orginals. The older I got, 25 now, I began to appreciate all the story in ESB and that one is my favorite now of the 4. Let's see if AOTC can compete with it in a few weeks. BUT, why do so many people think A New Hope and Empire were so great, but Return of the Jedi was merely ok. I just want to know what makes it so much worse than the others. SO please enlighten me.

[Dryanta]

Hey Jon.Sorry I can't enlighten you any because I really don't understand it myself

[187-Maul]

don't understand it too! I usaualy liked ANH and ROTJ more then ESB cause I don't really like Hoth cause it's too white! everything there is so blending white! but I watched it today again and I really love that movie, too now

[sith_killer_99]

I experienced this too.

As a kid I LOVED Jedi, IMO it was the best of the 3! As I got older I came to appreciate Empire more, and it is now my favorite of the 3.

I agree with the whole Hoth thing. When I was younger it was too over the top. Now I really appreciate the whole "Battle of Hoth"! Perhaps, when I was younger I just did not appreciate the intricacies of the movie. The battle on Hoth, the story lines, or even the way Lucas played out the whole Han/Leia thing. I just didn't think about stuff like that at 6 years old or even 9 (when Jedi came out).

But then, Lucas REALLY tailored to the kids when he made ROTJ! Remember when wearing all black was still cool, I think you have to be under a certain age to believe that one! And EWOKS, remember when ewoks were cool little furry dudes, instead of annoying little fuzz balls!

Here's a little theory:

ROTJ=TPM, geared towards kids, an all around FUN movie. (Ewoks=Gungans). Death Star II gets destroyed end of battle, Droid Control Ship gets destroyed end of battle!

ESB=AOTC, a bit of a love story. Han/Leia=Ani/Amidala. Huge ground battle. (Arena Battle=Battle of Hoth)

ANH=EPIII ?
Just a theory!

[snakeplkn]

Jon,

Interestingly enough Return of the Jedi was my favourite film, until last month, the Empire Strikes Back has taken over. When I can't find something good on the television, I'll play a video for about 30 minutes or so and watch the movie over the course of a few days. So in the past few months, I have watched all 4 films again.

Why Return of Jedi has dropped to number 3 on my rankings ...

--You can immediately tell the writing is so much stronger in The Empire Strikes Back. The dialogue and characters are much developed in Empire than Jedi. C-3PO, Han Solo, and Darth Vader are glaring in how their characters somewhat reverted backwards from Empire in their actions and talk.

--The story, the story, the story. The Rebels are on Hoth for a reason, the introduction of Dagobah comes at a critical stage in Luke's life, the asteriod field serves as a platform for Han and Leia, Bespin acts as the catalyst for the climax. Empire flows better. However Jedi, we have Solo's rescue, Yoda immediately dies (can Lucas do something better than kill off a character if he has no use for them) and then suddenly the Death Star II is forced on us, before long the Emperor has decided to put himself in harm's way, and most importantly teddy bears are defeating a legion of the Empire's best troops.

--The relationships. A New Hope and Empire have lots of tension between Luke, Han, and Leia. Empire manifests itself the most with Han and Leia emerging to love another before Han is frozen in the carbonite. By Jedi, nothing more develops than Luke's revelation to Leia that they are brother/sister, despite the fact of their previous actions to one another in the other movies. You would think there would be a more surprise element in Leia than "I always knew."

--Darth Vader. Darth Vader is shown in A New Hope and Empire as merciless, just slaughtering anyone who stands in his way or fails him. By Jedi, somehow the "good" in him emerges, he forgets all officer ranks, and when fighting his son, just falls down as if he had a heart attack. With Empire, he cuts off Luke's arm and still wants Luke to join him. I think there should have been more examples of the previous Anakin Skywalker within Darth Vader than he switching sides only when Luke is about to die. Until Luke decides to turn himself in, I don't see any compassion in Darth Vader.

Well there's more, but that's my take. Like I said, Return of the Jedi used to be my favourite, but it's fallen out of favour as I have grown older too. We can only hope that Episode II can not only redeem its name, but the Star Wars legacy.

Snake Plissken
"A little human compassion"

[hamsterboy]

The only thing I can think of is that with ROTJ,everything seemed to be hurried.

[chewie]

Ewoks... And it wasn't just because the Ewoks were all cute and fluffy, but that they could actually whoop up on stormtroopers who have blasters and armor. Now stormtroopers have been shown to be horrible shots and ineffectual armor in the previous two films, but to be beaten by little teddy bears with spears, hammers, bolas, and arrows? Very bad.

Also Leia being Luke's sister (though it was already hinted at in ESB).

And yet another Death Star. Now this isn't a very bad idea, but a new Death Star isn't exactly an original plot device to end the series.

Oh yeah, and also the silly Ewok song at the end of the original version of the film.

As for the extra stuff that was added in the special edition... The CGI Sy Snootles & Joh Yowza singing. Looked and sounded very out of place to me.

And that crummy new ending. The lame new song and the re-used CGI scenery from the previous films (it looked like stock footage because of that). I prefer the old ending to this actually.

And none of this was really that bad or terrible, and didn't detract much from me for this film, but it is why this film is #3 on my list of Star Wars flims.

[Starfig873]

Nonetheless I still like ROTJ. The score to the film is absolutely wonderful (including the new ending theme mind you, though I'll always have a place in my heart for "Yub Yub" )
Jabba the Hutt always made it good watching for me. And the ewoks? Not my favorite critters in the SW Universe, but they certainly don't bother me to the extent that they do many others. Silly in my opinion, but hey I'm just a Starfig.

[dr_evazan22]

I like the new theme as well, although I still like "Yub Yub" also. "Jedi Rocks" will NEVER replace "Lapti Nek" though.

[stillakid]

In my opinion, ROTJ was the most cartoony and superficial of the bunch (at least until TPM).

By far, ANH was the best movie overall. I think that it benefited greatly by being produced as a stand-alone film, which gave it an epic flavor while remaining personable and accessable to a wide audience. It has a very realistic feel to it that makes you believe that this place does indeed exist out there somewhere.

ESB comes in second. While it did have more developed characters, the film suffered from a detachment and impersonal feel throughout most of it. I credit this to the distinctly Canadian documentary style of filmmaking by director Irwin Kershner. The best moments are easily attributed to the rich writing by Lawrence Kasdan, who has an impressive body of work himself. The gritty reality of ANH begins to fade in this one, but that may be because of the very exotic (inaccessable) locations and directorial style that brought them to screen.

ROTJ really became a caracature of everything in the Star Wars universe. The colors are brighter and the production and effects are slicker. The gritty edge is lost, both in the locations and somehow in the characters. Everything comes off very calculated and precise. The filmmaking struggles so evident in ANH are not present on the screen for this, the last of the original trilogy. The best kind of filmmaking tends to come out of adversity and it is clear that Lucas had the road paved for him on this one.

If there were fewer obstacles for Lucas to overcome in ROTJ, there were virtually none when he produced TPM. There was no hurdle that money couldn't solve, when perhaps a little youthful filmmaking ingenuity might have been a better solution. The characters are wooden, the story weak. The FX look spectacular, but often fail to blend into the very real on-location shots.

So, the unfortunate trend for many filmmakers is that the more money and freedom they have access to, the worse the quality of their efforts get.

Judging purely on the trailers and the bits of information (non-spoiler) that I've heard about EP II, I expect that the effects will be, once again, amazing yet will fall short blending in seamlessly. I suspect a broader, more epic scale from this one with some of the better aspects of character development we saw in ANH and ESB. Only actually viewing will tell whether Lucas falters on the screenplay once again, choosing to take the easy road out and write with big broad strokes instead of delicately blending the storyline with the original trilogy.