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  1. #1

    Anakin will not fall into Lava (for the idiots)

    I really find it hard to believe that people think Anakin will fall into and completely get submerged in lava.

    I also want to shoot those volcano planet theories down once and for all...

    First some facts about geology: at the cores of most planets (definitely earth) is molten lava. Coruscant is likely the same way. In mythology, the hero's journey through hell takes him in the direction down. In religion, hell is also referred to in the direction down. Coruscant is a planet full of vice and corruption and to sink as deep as one can get in it would set one on a course for hell. Palpatine will most likely preside over part of Obi-Wan and Anakin's duel, and to escape assasination and for private meditation away from where the Jedi can sense his powers, it would make sense if he had a secret lair beneath the surface of the city-planet. Somewhere even the granite slugs and sub-human demon lifeforms that roam the lowest, most uninhabitable levels of Coruscant don't dare go because of either a lack of access, or the fire and the heat. Besides, it sets it up perfectly that these creatures exist in the darkness just above the entrance to hell - demons are always said to protect it. And I'll add - we never see Palpatine leave Coruscant.


    Next some facts about Darth Vader (that we know for sure). Vader has a mechanical right arm. Dooku cut his original biological arm off. Vader requires a respirator unit. This kind of thing helps people with lung damage. You can see less portable versions in hospitals today, as well as less complicated portable ones with the elderly who must carry oxygen with them. Vader has some lightsaber scarring to the back of his head and face - Obi-Wan Kenobi has a lightsaber (duh). Vader has the powers of telekenisis - the ability to move things with the Force.

    A fact about molten lava: it burns up and disintegrates everything. Watch Terminator 2 again and see what happens when the T-1000 falls into molten metal (lava is the same thing - the earth is composed of super-heated molten metals - that's what lava is). Flesh would start to burn even before you get into the lava. (See Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom) - oh and Anakin's flesh is not burned! (see Freddy Kruger in A Nightmare on Elmstreet). Fact: the air above lava is super hot. Fact- people, human Jedi, breath air. If Anakin breathes this super-hot air into his lungs, wouldn't he damage them? Fact: even if Anakin was too close to molten lava, he'd still have to breathe. Fact: Obi-Wan does not get that close, obviously.

    Finally, theory: if you had even unprecedented powers of telekenisis, they would be hard to control after you got struck in the head by a lightsaber - and twice at that! We've never seen a Jedi project a "Force-field" around them, using their abilities of telekenisis, to shield themselves in a 360 degree direction. Anakin would not survive being submerged into lava if he did not attempt to do this. He would be burnt up anywhere that he failed. It would only take seconds and he could not be saved. Therefore, he will not fall INTO lava. But it may appear to look that way.

    Lava comes up from cracks in the earth's surface. Cracks look like cliffs - the ocean's chasms were formed that way. There are ledges and precipes on the edges of cliffs that can't always be seen.

    I submit Anakin falls over the edge (without his new lightsaber), and to Obi-Wan it looks like he went in (like when Jango thought Obi-Wan himself fell into the drink on Kamino during the rain fight). Anakin did not fall in - he landed on a precipiece. He may see that much, then the flames rise so it obscures our view of Anakin on the ledge. We know he breathes the air down there - too close for his own safety. But that is the last we see of them.

    FACT: this is a 12-13 hour movie with chapters 1-6. If we see Anakin being rescued and put into the Vader armor, it will ruin Episode 5 when Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father.

    If watching it for the first time, we don't even know that the new hero is Luke SKYWALKER, because he doesn't even say his name until he rescues the Princess on the Death Star.

    He tells Threepio "You can call me Luke. No, just Luke."

    In fact, we don't even know that anyone on Tatooine DOESN'T think his name isn't Luke Lars up unto that point.

    Vader will appear in Episode 3 after Anakin is presumed dead by the characters in the movie. We will "know" he is actually Darth Vader, and the Jedi characters will sense something familiar about him, but we will not be shown Hayden Christensen in the black suit (even if the actor wears it to play Vader in some parts).
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  2. #2

    Re: Anakin will not fall into Lava (for the idiots)

    okay, i'll bite...

    Originally posted by Tycho
    Next some facts about Darth Vader (that we know for sure). Vader has a mechanical right arm. Dooku cut his original biological arm off. Vader requires a respirator unit. This kind of thing helps people with lung damage. You can see less portable versions in hospitals today, as well as less complicated portable ones with the elderly who must carry oxygen with them. Vader has some lightsaber scarring to the back of his head and face - Obi-Wan Kenobi has a lightsaber (duh). Vader has the powers of telekenisis - the ability to move things with the Force.
    ben himself says he's MORE machine now, than man...

    FACT: this is a 12-13 hour movie with chapters 1-6. If we see Anakin being rescued and put into the Vader armor, it will ruin Episode 5 when Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father.
    even still, when luke calls himself skywalker to leia at the detention block, then it's prematurely ruined...


    If watching it for the first time, we don't even know that the new hero is Luke SKYWALKER, because he doesn't even say his name until he rescues the Princess on the Death Star.
    see above...


    He tells Threepio "You can call me Luke. No, just Luke."
    he's objecting to being called "sir" not avoiding giving his last name...


    Vader will appear in Episode 3 after Anakin is presumed dead by the characters in the movie. We will "know" he is actually Darth Vader, and the Jedi characters will sense something familiar about him, but we will not be shown Hayden Christensen in the black suit (even if the actor wears it to play Vader in some parts).
    this still skips over anakin's darkest moment, unless he turns to the dark side before getting schooled by obi-wan, (which is most likely how it comes to be that they duel...) in which case, wouldn't he already have taken a darth name?

    i guess i just really don't understand why everyone's so intent on keeping the secrets of OT? maybe this should be a poll... how many want to see the secrets intact, or how many don't care, or how many want everything divulged...
    Nachos are the right of all sentient beings.

    The guns... They've stopped!
    - Dan Akroyd, Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope

  3. #3
    I could write a poll up on this. But it would have to be done very carefully.

    People vote quickly and don't THINK. If I put a note in my post for the pros and cons of showing Hayden get encased in the armor, it will often be read after people voted.

    That Ben says "he's more machine than man" could mean a lot of things. There may be some brutal dismemberment by lightsaber going on in that duel with Obi-Wan! However, lava would leave nothing left.

    Like I said, they WILL fight by lava. Anakin won't take a bath in it.
    However, other chemicals, like what Jack Rapier fell into, might make a play into things. Of course Batman fans know Jack Rapier by another name: The Joker. (See Batman: The Movie).

    But I think the lava - the colors, everything will be more dramatic than green, boiling chemicals. Those would still scar him like Freddy Kruegar anyhow. He can't fall into anything!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    I know he is telling Threepio he need not be called "Sir," not hiding his identity, but the point is he doesn't say "Skywalker." He could have. The audience wouldn't have thought anything of it if Luke does or does not give his full name back in the context of seeing only THIS movie in 1977.

    Every movie in the Star Wars saga reveals something. Perhaps ANH reveals the least. Now it is actually given something more (if you'd never seen it and then got this one as Episode 4, watching them all in order, when you figure all the Skywalkers are dead with Shmi and Anakin - OR - w. Padme and her children presumed dead or some hidden connection being made with a smuggled baby (singular - as Leia must be kept secret until ROTJ or Luke is constantly suggesting incest with his desires to get close to her).

    There aren't pivotal moments when Anakin 'becomes evil.' There are steps he takes that he cannot draw back from. It's a little late to say "Oh, sorry about that" for either him or Obi-Wan after this duel. But Anakin took a significant step to the Dark Side when he killed those Tuskens to avenge his mom.

    His attachments are his key. Why do you think they take Jedi away when they are so young? -babies...?

    His next attachment is Padme. After that it is Obi-Wan. But like most teens breaking away from their parents, Obi-Wan frustrates the hell out of Anakin. The Jedi Code and Training Traditions exist, but Obi-Wan is the most visible spokesperson for them in Anakin's life. So he'll blame Obi-Wan for preventing him from rescuing his mother sooner.

    Now Palpatine patronizes Anakin. "You don't need guidence." Etc. So he'll become Anakin's next closest attachment.

    If he blames Obi-Wan for not allowing him to prevent the death of his wife and unborn child, Palpatine will capitalize on this anger and use it to turn Anakin. He gave up everything for Padme and the chance to have a family since losing his own (his mother). Now that's taken away from him and he has nothing, but the Supreme Chancellor's patronage. Obi-Wan will come along - likely having learned the truth about Palpatine / Sidious, and by this time (as indicated by Anakin's tantrum in the Lars garage) young Skywalker will blame everything on Obi-Wan.

    Why is that not the most obvious thing anybody ever thought of?

    Do you think he turned to the Dark Side because his favorite team lost the SuperBowl?

    His wife and unborn child were just reported murdered! Is that not his darkest hour?

    Why does he want to dress in armor (or not) and walk around and call himself Darth while ruining ESB for us before anything like this happens to him?

    Why would being kicked out of the Jedi Order be such a bad thing if he picked up a wife and family in the trade-off? That's not his darkest hour.

    "The evil Anakin" will look exactly like Hayden Christensen when he kills the Tusken Raiders.

    I don't have to know spoilers to figure out some things that are common sense.

    Sorry if I sounded harsh. I just can't phathom why anyone would miss this set-up.

    Finally if that's not enough: Dooku might be his father. Dooku is dead by this point, too. Killed possibly by Anakin. On top of his wife and unborn child, that's the last straw! You can't erase the stain of blood on your hands. And by killing Dooku, Anakin does just that.

    Last but not least, Dooku might really be in on this to destroy the Sith from the inside out. Maybe his plan 'could have succeeded,' but Anakin came along and killed him! Ooops. Another mistake he can't take back.
    Last edited by Tycho; 06-02-2002 at 06:28 PM.
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  4. #4
    i didn't say anything about falling anywhere. i agree with you, he won't have fallen into anything.

    i have always felt that the blaming obi-wan was TOO obvious to even mention. i strongly feel that anakin's frustration with obi-wan is part of his fall. i'm not missing any set up, i just think that he will be "darth vader" long before he is in the suit... yes, anakin is the rebellious teenager to obi-wan's overbearing parent. all this $#!^ happens to him, and he's driven over the edge. probably his last step to the dark side is turning on his former master.

    i guess the only thing that concerns me is it might feel kinda hokey if we DON'T see anakin become vader. like, it will be almost too obvious if we see anakin "die" and all of a sudden this new sith lord appears. all i'm saying is, i think it is inevitible that the secrets are revealed in ep III. even if they're not spoken. furthermore, i don't think this is my point of view just because i already know the secrets. i feel like it will have to be IMMENSELY subtle if the secrets are to be maintained, and that's why i am worried that the story will suffer greatly.

    it still stands that the luke/vader secret is ruined at a particularly anticlimactic part of ANH. maybe if they digitally change his name to "lars"...

    i didn't say anything about being kicked out of the jedi order as his darkest moment. i feel that his darkest moment is when he is initiated into the sith, whenever that may happen. most likely that happens after he challenges his former master (his last step,) so it will skip over THE darkest moment, in hopes that a few brand new viewers might not guess who is behind the mask.

    it's not that i want the secrets revealed prematurely, i just don't want the story to suffer from over-subtlety.
    Nachos are the right of all sentient beings.

    The guns... They've stopped!
    - Dan Akroyd, Star Wars Episode IV - A New Hope

  5. #5
    Registered Darth Grifter's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Tycho

    Finally if that's not enough: Dooku might be his father. Dooku is dead by this point, too. Killed possibly by Anakin. On top of his wife and unborn child, that's the last straw! You can't erase the stain of blood on your hands. And by killing Dooku, Anakin does just that.

    Last but not least, Dooku might really be in on this to destroy the Sith from the inside out. Maybe his plan 'could have succeeded,' but Anakin came along and killed him! Ooops. Another mistake he can't take back.
    Why would Dooku be Anakin's father? That sound a little far fetched when Shmi herself tells Qui-Gon that there was no father. I think that a woman would know, not that I am one, when she conceived a child with a man. If Anakin has a father it separates the "Messiah-like" birth that Anakin has. I think that Lucas is playing with the Messiah story line becasue he wants to make Anakin -- "the chosen one" -- out to be the redemption and/or saviour of the Force...however, we all know that he is not and that his children are.

    I agree with your Lava, or should I say non-Lava theory about Anakin's need for the respirator. I also think that there doesn't need to be a secret about Anakin being Darth Vader, because Obi-Wan hides the truth from Luke about Darth Vader being Anakin Skywalker in the "Your father was killed by Darth Vader" rouse in ANH and then later confesses in ESB that he had fibbed. Yoda also seems to know and changes the subject on his deathbed when Luke asks why he never told him. This seems evident enough to me that Hayden might dawn the suit in the later part of EIII. I don't really know, these are just my theories. I think that would be a sweet overlay to the ending, a flash of the children's fate and then a flash of the mask being lowered down...This is the fun part about a new movie, it gives clues about what is to come and also makes new questions...I guess we'll have to wait until 2005...Thanks George

    This is a good thread Tycho, thanks...
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  6. #6
    Registered Darth Grifter's Avatar
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    Do you think that maybe the final step over will be Anakin defending Sidious/Palpatine against a strike from Obi-Wan and that might be how the battle begins...This would be an excellent parallel to Luke's attempt on the Emperor in ROTJ...Just a quick thought...
    [FONT=Century Gothic]"what happens in Indy, stays in Indy..."
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  7. #7
    Tycho: First I would appreciate if you wouldn't refer to anyone who doesn't agree with or think the same way as you as an Idiot. I'm sure you feel pretty certain about your theories surrounding the Star Wars universe. You have to remember, however, that your theory is simply a theory or in other words itís your Opinion. You don't have to write a post that starts off calling people an idiot and then speaking to them as if they were ignorant ten year olds to get your point across. We all can read just fine and I'm sure many of us have graduated from high school or college and have a decent understanding of the natural world. We understand that falling directly into lava would most certainly kill you.

    Now I may be wrong, itís been a while since I read it, but I don't think the book says Anakin fell into lava at all. It did say he and Obi-Wan were fighting on the lip of a volcano and at some point Anakin fell into a volcano, but not lava (which is molten rock and not molten metal by the way). The one thing that is found in abundance in a volcano is water vapor. The wounds on Anakinís body could very well come from exposure to super heated water vapor. His lung damage could have been caused by another element that is very common in a volcano, that is sulfuric gasses and other gasses that combined could cause serious lung damage. So as you see itís not so idiotic to think that Anakin fell into a volcano after all.

    Remember, you have your OPINION. Other people may not share that OPINION. The fact that other people do not agree with your OPINION does not make them idiots. As soon as that OPINION becomes fact, you can then consider calling somebody an idiot who does not agree with you, but not until then.
    Which is more foollish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

  8. #8
    Darth Grifter: That's exactly what I think it will be (the cause of the fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan). Thought I made that clear. Sorry, it must have been the "complete story synopsis thread."

    As to Dooku being the father - I've been through this before.

    1) it's most strongly motivated because I am uncomfortable with the immaculate conception theory! I admit that. I don't like it, nor religious legends, very much at all. No thank you!

    These next points have to assume it's true - he has a father:

    2) Shmi lied to protect Dooku. Qui-Gon and the Jedi wouldn't know, but Dooku would have told her about his former apprentice who was off training Kenobi by then (Obi-Wan would be 15 when Anakin was born). Thus Shmi knows who Qui-Gon is and lets her son leave with him. If Qui-Gon sense something familiar about the boy, it was the impossible that he'd never think of: Anakin was related to his former master.

    3) Palpatine learned the truth about this and used it to exploit Dooku. That's why Dooku is the specific Jedi he needs for his plots.

    4) Dooku might know he has a son, but he doesn't realize it's Anakin. Or that his son and lover survived being taken by pirates and were sold into slavery shortly afterward. He doesn't even know who it was he fought against (meaning Anakin in the hanger battle). He left before Anakin came to the Temple. Everything that happens has to do with Palpatine's design. Dooku might've been black-mailed or he might've been tempted to avenge Qui-Gon by joining the Dark Side to then destroy Sidious from right behind his back.

    5) Might want to check the script for the deleted Trial scene on Geonosis. Do they just address Padme and refer to him as "the Jedi" or do they care to learn his name is Anakin. They're just human Jedi to these guys, just like the name of the Geonosian that the Nexu ate is not that important to you.

    6) This whole forbidden love thing reinforces the like-father, like-son theme. But Luke says, "I can't kill my own father." What would it have done to his character if he'd looped over and blown away Vader's TIE? Then learned the truth when it was too late?
    I think Anakin does and he carries this guilt with him. I think if this whole Dooku thing is true, the Council might know - they midichlorian tested them both at different points. I don't know if Obi-Wan knows. But regardless, if Yoda knows, Anakin will hate the Jedi even more.

    7) I think that Jedi aren't allowed to marry because it will produce more midi-chlorian high kids than the Jedi can control - they could inter-marry and become even more powerful. The Temple is like Mutant High in X-men. It's for those that can't help what they are to learn to use their abilities. Not to create more "abominations." Furthermore, if a Jedi parent was allowed to train their own child, it might create too much pressure - like when your dad's your baseball coach - and / or the parent might take too much pride in their own and push they child unreasonably. The alternative is to have someone else train them. If you were a Jedi and had your kid passed off to Howard the Duck and instructed not to interact with your own child, how would you feel? Especially when his or her midi-chlorian count was high enough to turn them into a Darth Vader?
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  9. #9
    Darth Stevious:

    First, I might consider changing that line in the title of my post because I do not wish to offend.

    However, I did not call anyone an idiot. I merely suggested that things I've heard before from people everywhere, including things overheard in the toy stores, book stores, movie lines, etc. sound idiotic to me. Some people, including some children, start talking about the lava every once in a while - and it's enough to irk me how many people do not either a) perceive a Jedi's powers in a believable manner (despite this being a fictional space fantasy) and b) that some people either don't know the basic property of lava - that bathing in it will dissolve you, or they say things like that (he'll fall into lava) and don't think through how ridiculous that sounds.

    So, no one has been called an idiot by name (save for R2D2, but blame that on Threepio anyway).

    Next, the possibly goading title certainly did attract attention, didn't it? For shock value, it might be worth keeping. It is starting an interesting discussion, isn't it? By posting in here you're not including yourself as an idiot, or I am then also the king of all idiots for starting this thread. But in line with Star Wars, I prefer the title "Lord" of all the idiots instead. (*takes a big whiff of my Mouse Droid*)

    Oh, now here's a big one:

    THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO BOOK!

    What book are you talking about? Lucas wrote an outline. He developed the middle act into ANH with a backstory in mind. He went forward instead of backward, and we have ESB and ROTJ.

    Now he's gone all the way back and is making this stuff up as he fills the details in. He is following an outline, but it has never been fleshed out and it has certainly never been published. I don't think Rick McCallum has this, so I don't think anyone on this site does either.

    I once met a guy in Wal*Mart in the action figure isle out in Santee, California. He swore his great Aunt had the "whole book" somewhere up in her attic. I'm sure if he got that dusty old rag out from up there he could turn to chapter 2 and it would say "Attack of the Clones?" No? Then what about the title for Episode 3? Somebody would know that now....

    Or if Padme lives or dies?

    OK - there is no book. The last chapter is being written right now, and there is a waste paper basket next to George's desk full of ideas that have been thrown out. I am willing to accept that maybe some of my theories are in there.

    Another thing is I posted about it being idiotic to think that Anakin fell into LAVA. I said nothing about it being impossible that he'd fall into a volcano. However, I think that it's likely that this duel takes place on Coruscant (which might have a volcano somewhere - or a big earthquake to create one) or it is rather more probable that they are beneath the surface of Coruscant's crust.

    Thank you for continuing my geology lesson. I did not know about the sulfur and molten rock and molten metal differences. But isn't rock made out of mineral elements, as is metal? Metal can be made out of ore, such as iron, an element...oh...you can fill me in on that one, it doesn't matter next to knowledge about Star Wars. I just know you can find metals on the periodic table of elements and you can make it by super-heating different kinds of rock and ore, so it's all there in the lava core of a planet, from a certain point of view. But back to the knowledge of Star Wars, the lava thing is not in any book. It's possible that Lucas himself perpetuated that rumor by generalizing about it in some interview, but I don't really know how or when that lava thing got started, but it was older than ESB, I can tell you that.

    Finally, while I like to be outrageous with my post titles from time to time, if my theories are proven correct, I might enjoy a smug "I told you so," but I would not call any person an idiot specifically. We respect other people in the forums here (or should make a stronger effort to) and it would be totally inappropriate.

    If you have another theory, such as a volcano planet, or a volcano on Coruscant, or whatever, please post it up! Either myself or someone else will disagree with it (possibly) and tear into it, but that is what these threads are for. Don't just agree or disagree, let's have a discussion! I will predictably defend my theories until I hear something better, but I have been known to adapt my theories and thinking towards good arguments brought up by somebody else.

    Finally, if I made my original post sound like I was talking to 10 years olds, it's because I was. I realize the majority of those reading are older - 20's like myself, or 30's-40's and educated, but young people can always benefit by being taught (or tempted into) learning how to reason logically, and the guy in Wal*Mart who thought there was some official finished book covering the whole saga WAS in his 20's at the least. He looked older than me anyway. But he might be a newer, or less-informed fan and he has every right to be. But this thread will help bring new folks up to date about everything from "complete books" to the lava theory.
    Last edited by Tycho; 06-02-2002 at 08:54 PM.
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  10. #10
    Hey Tycho, if this thread doesn't frustrate you enough, go read the Syfo Dyas Q&A. Its in the Episode II forum. Some of the guys in there have Mace Windu and Qui Gon being Sith, Anakin being a clone, and some other wacky ideas that make my head want to explode.
    Yo momma. That's right, I said "yo momma".

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